RE: Lotus 3-Eleven - official!
Discussion
unsprung said:
I offer no contest of vehicles, eg: Lotus and Ford. My question is about value for money.
Given the extraordinary talent in Britain, as well as a tradition of individualism that is a marked contrast to Continental cultures, it is not unreasonable to question the cavalcade of high-priced cars that are regularly announced and put on sale. As well as the slight whiff of class consciousness that surrounds many of these.
One would be forgiven for misunderstanding that the UK ends at the home counties.
If you want value for money, you have to buy something mass produced. Anything mass produced will be mass-market. The demands of the mass market are mediocre. If you want something special, you're going to have to pay for it.Given the extraordinary talent in Britain, as well as a tradition of individualism that is a marked contrast to Continental cultures, it is not unreasonable to question the cavalcade of high-priced cars that are regularly announced and put on sale. As well as the slight whiff of class consciousness that surrounds many of these.
One would be forgiven for misunderstanding that the UK ends at the home counties.
If you look for it, you will find other news. Like this;
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/kia/ceed/91989/kia-ce...
Personally, I'm not in the market for an 80k car, but it's a hell of a lot more interesting than the Kia story.
unsprung said:
Dick Seaman said:
unsprung said:
Laugh-out-loud prices. As usual. At £115000, the Race is exactly the same price as the average US home.
Thanks, that's as relevant as posting the average US home lap time.DonkeyApple said:
unsprung said:
Laugh-out-loud prices. As usual. At £115000, the Race is exactly the same price as the average US home.
So much creativity, know-how and that little bit of whimsy in the UK. So little access.
Cheaper than a garage in my street. It's clearly a bargain. So much creativity, know-how and that little bit of whimsy in the UK. So little access.
I'm happy for Lotus to continuing trading if this means that they must focus on a select customer. However, the disproportionate number of UK product announcements that risk that old bromide, rip-off Britain, is tiring.
Even TVR, in its pending relaunch, now seeks to go upmarket.
The announcement of things like a £33,000 V8 Mustang -- UK homologation, OEM warranty and RHD -- put this topic on the spot.
How many units will the Mustang development be amortised over v how many of the other cars you mention? And that doesn't even begin to highlight the construction economies of scale. Or take into account the bp over that Ford can borrow at versus the others.
The true reality is that these cars can be so close in price to mass robot produced, generic utility products is the amazing element.
unsprung said:
Given the extraordinary talent in Britain, as well as a tradition of individualism that is a marked contrast to Continental cultures, it is not unreasonable to question the cavalcade of high-priced cars that are regularly announced and put on sale. As well as the slight whiff of class consciousness that surrounds many of these.
The budget kit-car market is available for those wanting cheap.The MX5 for something affordable to the masses with millions of R&D spent on it.
These days there is almost a car for every budget or requirement, unless you're a PH die hard where you bemoan there not being quite the right car for you, for reasons A, B and C.
wemorgan said:
The budget kit-car market is available for those wanting cheap.
The MX5 for something affordable to the masses with millions of R&D spent on it.
These days there is almost a car for every budget or requirement, unless you're a PH die hard where you bemoan there not being quite the right car for you, for reasons A, B and C.
And there are things like the Ginetta but no one wants one. The MX5 for something affordable to the masses with millions of R&D spent on it.
These days there is almost a car for every budget or requirement, unless you're a PH die hard where you bemoan there not being quite the right car for you, for reasons A, B and C.
There is no market in making low volume products for people with no money.
And as you say, we have an absolutely awesome kitcar industry that caters for people with just a few K to probably getting towards £100k in some cases.
If you want a cheap, fun, British sports car then people should get off their fat, whinging arses and go and build one instead of expecting others to build it for them and then sell it at a loss with a cash back.
UK cars are too often developed on cost-plus pricing -- which overlooks opportunities for value creation and excludes too much of the middle class. Not to mention: vast export markets.
I look forward to disruptive business models. Bring on the locally-printed Triumph Spitfire of 2025!
otolith said:
Isn't Jean-Marc Gales the guy from the Stella Artois ad?"It's Cidre, not cider"
Awesome! Don't think it looks as nice as the 2-11, but I doubt I'd care if I could buy one. I also think it's good for Lotus.
Sure it should have more power/less weight/cost as much as an MX5 on steel wheels to interest the diesel Audi driving PH masses, but importantly they'll (hopefully) make some real money out of these. Which matters more than pleasing keyboard warriors and scraping an existence.
Sure it should have more power/less weight/cost as much as an MX5 on steel wheels to interest the diesel Audi driving PH masses, but importantly they'll (hopefully) make some real money out of these. Which matters more than pleasing keyboard warriors and scraping an existence.
I don't get the target market.
It's too comprimesed for the road. At the same time, too mush of a car to give the extra feeling of speed available from daft cars like an atom.
It's totally track focussed, but presumably would be mullered by a radical / juno / jade at what, 1/2 to 1/3rd of the price?
So that makes it a target for the drive to the track and blast it crowd - but it will be so capable on track that "normal" days it's held up constantly, but on test days why not use a track only car?
I really want Lotus to do well, but I can't see this being a big contributor - despite the margin they probably have in this...
It's too comprimesed for the road. At the same time, too mush of a car to give the extra feeling of speed available from daft cars like an atom.
It's totally track focussed, but presumably would be mullered by a radical / juno / jade at what, 1/2 to 1/3rd of the price?
So that makes it a target for the drive to the track and blast it crowd - but it will be so capable on track that "normal" days it's held up constantly, but on test days why not use a track only car?
I really want Lotus to do well, but I can't see this being a big contributor - despite the margin they probably have in this...
Impasse said:
The intention is to make only 311 of the things (similar to 340 340Rs), so I guess price is somewhat irrelevant as it's never going to be a mainstream car.
It will be interesting to see if they sell them all tbh.With these price points they are into a very small market sector, that of a serious trackday enthusiast but one with serious money behind them.
There are LOTS of people who'd spend £120k on a sports car like an 911 Gt3 and track it occasionally, but the rest of the time their wife can drive it to the shops, listening to the radio.
With the 3-11 tbh you need to be able to splash £80k on a complete "toy". Sure, you can drive it on the road, but i can't actually see many people doing that.
Also ime, the overlap of the Venn diagram showing "people who can afford an £80k car" and "People who are handy enough behind the wheel to really get a 450bhp car working hard on track" is astonishingly small..... ;-)
Max_Torque said:
Also ime, the overlap of the Venn diagram showing "people who can afford an £80k car" and "People who are handy enough behind the wheel to really get a 450bhp car working hard on track" is astonishingly small..... ;-)
Oh, that doesn't matter, so long as they think they can.Some Gump said:
I don't get the target market.
It's too comprimesed for the road. At the same time, too mush of a car to give the extra feeling of speed available from daft cars like an atom.
It's totally track focussed, but presumably would be mullered by a radical / juno / jade at what, 1/2 to 1/3rd of the price?
So that makes it a target for the drive to the track and blast it crowd - but it will be so capable on track that "normal" days it's held up constantly, but on test days why not use a track only car?
I really want Lotus to do well, but I can't see this being a big contributor - despite the margin they probably have in this...
Earn a few hundred K a year net. Nice house with plenty of garages. Bored. Like cars. Looking for something that'll be fun, isn't cheap or old hat like a Caterham and will be great to drop out of the trailer and pass your mate's 918 or P1. It's too comprimesed for the road. At the same time, too mush of a car to give the extra feeling of speed available from daft cars like an atom.
It's totally track focussed, but presumably would be mullered by a radical / juno / jade at what, 1/2 to 1/3rd of the price?
So that makes it a target for the drive to the track and blast it crowd - but it will be so capable on track that "normal" days it's held up constantly, but on test days why not use a track only car?
I really want Lotus to do well, but I can't see this being a big contributor - despite the margin they probably have in this...
I'm guessing they only plan on selling a couple of hundred, if that, and I'm not sure that'll be an issue.
otolith said:
Oh, that doesn't matter, so long as they think they can.
Exactly. Plenty of track clubs where members can not only drop big sums on toys but like a kid in a candy store, need to turn up at the next event with something new and interesting that will grab attention. And being a driving God is of little relevance. It's just a fun day mucking about with similar people.
otolith said:
Max_Torque said:
Also ime, the overlap of the Venn diagram showing "people who can afford an £80k car" and "People who are handy enough behind the wheel to really get a 450bhp car working hard on track" is astonishingly small..... ;-)
Oh, that doesn't matter, so long as they think they can.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff