HPI checked a car I've just given a deposit for...
Discussion
Deerfoot said:
Have you asked the seller how you could tax it without the V5 reference?
No... because I just arrived in UK a few months ago, I don't know how it all works yet. I have been trying to know as much stuff as I could to avoid being conned, but I guess that's a fail right there.I'm sick of talking to the father, I'll send a message to the son instead. Maybe he's better to speak with. After all, the company is in his name, and it was his car...
And if all runs out, well, too bad. £500 up in smoke. But I won't buy it, you are right. (not only talking to Deerfoot here anymore) Too sketchy, no matter what the dude says.
I want to thank you all, once more. I don't know many people in this country yet, and you're all being very helpful. Feels good in this stupid situation.
A debit card was much easier to get when I arrived in the country. Needed a bank to get a flat, needed a flat to get the job, and kinda needed the job to get the bank. When I saw an opening, I took it.
Besides, for some reason, in France (that's where I come from btw), UK debit cards are called credit cards and UK credit cards don't quite exist... so I took what I knew more about.
I have sent a message to the son. Asked the full deposit back. If he says no or tries to confuse me, THEN I go for the £400. Maybe that'll work better. If not, I'll call them again. That's gonna piss the dad off, but hey, not quite my problem. And if this doesn't work, well, I'll try to see if my bank can help me on this.
Besides, for some reason, in France (that's where I come from btw), UK debit cards are called credit cards and UK credit cards don't quite exist... so I took what I knew more about.
I have sent a message to the son. Asked the full deposit back. If he says no or tries to confuse me, THEN I go for the £400. Maybe that'll work better. If not, I'll call them again. That's gonna piss the dad off, but hey, not quite my problem. And if this doesn't work, well, I'll try to see if my bank can help me on this.
Nah... honestly I am fed up with this man and this car. I will not give him anymore of my money. He's pretending to be an experienced businessman and so on, yet he puts a car on sale that still appears as being on finance, still doesn't have a V5c. He knows very well that people conduct HPI checks, he said he knows very well that there is a delay between finance being paid off and the HPI being cleared. Then, why didn't he wait a few days for his car to appear clear before putting it on sale?
Just for this, I don't trust the man anymore. At this point, I'd rather lose my £500 than gamble and take the car. A £500 loss I can manage. Not a £5300 one.
As I expected, the son did not answer. I will probably drive to ask for my deposit back. Way to spend the bloody weekend...
Just for this, I don't trust the man anymore. At this point, I'd rather lose my £500 than gamble and take the car. A £500 loss I can manage. Not a £5300 one.
As I expected, the son did not answer. I will probably drive to ask for my deposit back. Way to spend the bloody weekend...
I'll be driving there in a few minutes. Absolutely, I intend to be polite but firm. I neither want to call him a crook and threaten him (because as far as law is concerned for the deposit, it's dodgy), neither want him to tell me sweet lies and convince me to buy his car.
I have just remembered I have a juridical protection included in my (quite expensive) international health insurance. If he doesn't want to refund the deposit, I'll ring them, along with my bank.
Aaaah it's so sunny, I should be lying in the sun instead of driving 2 hours to most probably not even get my money back.
As for the 500SL... 23 yo, foreigner, european license. Probably way too expensive to insure anyway! :P
The more it goes, the more I think I will end up buying a Fiat Punto for a thousand quid and spend the rest on parties!
I have just remembered I have a juridical protection included in my (quite expensive) international health insurance. If he doesn't want to refund the deposit, I'll ring them, along with my bank.
Aaaah it's so sunny, I should be lying in the sun instead of driving 2 hours to most probably not even get my money back.
As for the 500SL... 23 yo, foreigner, european license. Probably way too expensive to insure anyway! :P
The more it goes, the more I think I will end up buying a Fiat Punto for a thousand quid and spend the rest on parties!
I am back. At least this was a nice sunny drive.
So, as expected, I haven't got my money back. I arrived to the man's place, ringed the bell. The son answered, I explained to him why I was there, he said I should see this with his father as he's the one in charge, so he called him on the phone.
I asked very politely for the refund, and the father went all "I won't refund anything, don't come to my house, get out of my property". Er... it's not like his professional address is his house and I came in well within opening hours (with another man test driving another car while I was there).
The signal got genuinely bad and I lost him. I discussed a bit with the son while he was trying to call him back. Explained him my problem, politely, patiently, how I understand taking the car off the market and on again would have a cost and therefore how I'd understand being refunded only £450 for example. He admitted "understanding where I'm coming from". I said I could use chargeback but I hoped we could do this in a friendly way first.
The son finally managed to call back the dad, discussed with him about a minute or so in private, came back to me and told me I'd have to send a letter to "officially" request for my money back, stating the reasons why I want it. Almost explicitly told me I'd get my money back then.
So, on Monday, I'll send it (a polite one once again, I feel it would work better), obviously with an option to have a proof of delivery (it exists, right?). Then wait for it a few days, and I'll try to use chargeback if he refuses/ignores the request.
So, as expected, I haven't got my money back. I arrived to the man's place, ringed the bell. The son answered, I explained to him why I was there, he said I should see this with his father as he's the one in charge, so he called him on the phone.
I asked very politely for the refund, and the father went all "I won't refund anything, don't come to my house, get out of my property". Er... it's not like his professional address is his house and I came in well within opening hours (with another man test driving another car while I was there).
The signal got genuinely bad and I lost him. I discussed a bit with the son while he was trying to call him back. Explained him my problem, politely, patiently, how I understand taking the car off the market and on again would have a cost and therefore how I'd understand being refunded only £450 for example. He admitted "understanding where I'm coming from". I said I could use chargeback but I hoped we could do this in a friendly way first.
The son finally managed to call back the dad, discussed with him about a minute or so in private, came back to me and told me I'd have to send a letter to "officially" request for my money back, stating the reasons why I want it. Almost explicitly told me I'd get my money back then.
So, on Monday, I'll send it (a polite one once again, I feel it would work better), obviously with an option to have a proof of delivery (it exists, right?). Then wait for it a few days, and I'll try to use chargeback if he refuses/ignores the request.
Edited by Sawyer815 on Saturday 27th June 21:17
Zad said:
I get the feeling that someone wrote down Eighty, when someone said Eighteen. You are right to be cautious though, I can imagine me in the same situation.
It would make sense, but it doesn't quite add up. I'm pretty sure he told me the car has been serviced at 2Xk miles in late 2013 (october or something). The HPI check puts the 80k figure in november 2013.Deerfoot said:
VolvoT5 said:
I think they might have a legitimate case for keeping some of your deposit to cover the cost of re-adveriting the car and and lost value due to the additional owner on the logbook. I don't know if the logbook situation will affect their resale - can they resell it now in the knowledge one logbook application is already in the post?
They may also argue for any costs to be deducted if they have done any preparation work like an MOT, valet, etc.
I thought they hadn't sent the document off, hence there is no additional owner on the (missing) V5?They may also argue for any costs to be deducted if they have done any preparation work like an MOT, valet, etc.
And yes, I'm quite patient, but it's also because chargeback is apparently supposed to be only used once every agreement between client and seller has failed, as a last-resort solution. Considering the seller told me to send him a formal request by letter, I'll try this first...
VolvoT5 said:
what they have/haven't done may not correlate to what they try to charge OP for though.......
Then again, it should be pretty easy to prove that DVLA never received a V62. And, I'm not sure it's worth anything, but I have recorded the conversation where he states he would only send the V62 once I'd pay for the car.VolvoT5 said:
I hope they play fair but the signs aren't great are they. Don't get me wrong, I think you are right to ask for your money back..... but if they go the formal/legal route they could drag it out for ages.
I'm not sure if a charge back on a debit card has the same legal rights attached as a credit card claim. I'm sure with debit charge back there is quite a lot of discretion at the bank's end. Even making a credit card (section 75, so a legal right) claim is long and tedious.... it requires evidence the goods haven't been received or are not as described and the company wont refund or resolve the issue. They can then take months to investigate.
Yeah, I get that. I am prepared to potentially never see my money again. But I will try all my options before giving up. I'm not sure if a charge back on a debit card has the same legal rights attached as a credit card claim. I'm sure with debit charge back there is quite a lot of discretion at the bank's end. Even making a credit card (section 75, so a legal right) claim is long and tedious.... it requires evidence the goods haven't been received or are not as described and the company wont refund or resolve the issue. They can then take months to investigate.
0a said:
Well that sounds reasonably positive. I'd guess actually getting the money might be more difficult.
You'll need to go to a post office to send the letter with proof of delivery.
What a bad experience
It's the son who seemed understanding and who kinda said that with the letter I'd have my money back. Not certain the father fully agrees with that. You'll need to go to a post office to send the letter with proof of delivery.
What a bad experience
As for VolvoT5, thanks, I'll take a look at that. But I'd want to take the "safest route" here, make sure whatever proof of delivery I have can be used to prove anything.
All that jazz said:
Oh come on! You don't seriously believe that? If you do then you're far more naive than I had you down for. The bottom line is if he's refused to give your monkey back in person after travelling 2 hours to get it and you're stood on his doorstep 2 inches from his face then you've got absolutely zero chance of getting it back from sending him nice letters saying "please Mr. Seller, may I have my money back?". Your letters will be instantly filed in the round filing cabinet.
As for claiming it back via your bank bearing in mind it was a BACS payment on a debit card, well good luck with that one. It will certainly give the bank staff a good laugh if nothing else.
No, I don't seriously believe it, I'd be genuinely surprised to get my money back that way, but I'm still going to try. The guy was not here, I talked to his son who couldn't do it. What was I supposed to do, then? Force the entrance, search the house for some cash? Sit on the front porch (of someone else's property) until the guy comes back, which could have been hours later and definitely wouldn't have put him in more a mood for a refund? The letter is only so that I can say in all good faith "I've tried everything" when I try to apply Chargeback or another juridical thing afterwards. I'll have proof he received it and denied it.As for claiming it back via your bank bearing in mind it was a BACS payment on a debit card, well good luck with that one. It will certainly give the bank staff a good laugh if nothing else.
If the bank laugh, they laugh, so be it. As I said, it's £500, not £50.000. It's a lot of money, but I can live without. I just want to try as much stuff as I can to get it back.
All that jazz said:
What did you really expect to happen when you went trotting off on a 4 hour round-trip? You didn't think this one through too well. Not only are you down a monkey but you've also added another £40 or so to it in wasted fuel and time. He was never going to hand it back to you and I don't get how you came to the conclusion that he would.
The charge-back won't even go any further that your initial call to your bank for the simple reason that it will be your word against his and in the absence of any signed written contracts agreeing the terms and conditions of the deposit you made to him there is absolutely no way to prove who is telling the truth. The same thing will happen if you take him to court as well. You will say x, he will say y, no way to prove it one way or the other. The only thing you will achieve is wasting even more of your time and money.
Imho you would've been better focusing your attention on the story behind the allegedly missing V5 and putting the question to him/them how they expected you to pay the balance and drive it away with a missing V5 and thus no tax. I have a feeling that the V5 might have suddenly been "found" when they realise you can't do anything with the car until they can produce it. I would put all this is writing to him ("letter before action") giving him 14 days to produce the V5 and proof the finance has been paid off or the deal is off and threaten legal action to recover your deposit. Realistically I very much doubt you'd be able to recover the deposit via the legal system but if you did decide to go down that route you'd have to give him the opportunity to 'right' everything before any court would even look at the case. If you're not prepared to do this then just write off your £500 now and move on as you've no chance of seeing it again just from sending him letters asking for it back.
When I said 2 hours, I meant round-trip, and I actually overestimated that, took me 1h15 in total. The charge-back won't even go any further that your initial call to your bank for the simple reason that it will be your word against his and in the absence of any signed written contracts agreeing the terms and conditions of the deposit you made to him there is absolutely no way to prove who is telling the truth. The same thing will happen if you take him to court as well. You will say x, he will say y, no way to prove it one way or the other. The only thing you will achieve is wasting even more of your time and money.
Imho you would've been better focusing your attention on the story behind the allegedly missing V5 and putting the question to him/them how they expected you to pay the balance and drive it away with a missing V5 and thus no tax. I have a feeling that the V5 might have suddenly been "found" when they realise you can't do anything with the car until they can produce it. I would put all this is writing to him ("letter before action") giving him 14 days to produce the V5 and proof the finance has been paid off or the deal is off and threaten legal action to recover your deposit. Realistically I very much doubt you'd be able to recover the deposit via the legal system but if you did decide to go down that route you'd have to give him the opportunity to 'right' everything before any court would even look at the case. If you're not prepared to do this then just write off your £500 now and move on as you've no chance of seeing it again just from sending him letters asking for it back.
I went there directly because I knew on the phone I would've had even less chances to convince him. Less than zero is not very much, but still. I'm not a hippie, but considering the guy was all claiming about how he's got a hundred properties in the country and several businesses and he makes hundred thousands and what not, I thought he might understand my problem and refund to me. I seem to have been wrong.
I signed a deposit slip for the car and I have the payment receipt, so I have proof that I left hin the £500. Nowhere on the slip does it say the car was still under finance. The guy was trying to sell a car that was, according to HPI and the credit company, not belonging to him at that point. That's my line of defense. I have the Google cache of the original ad which did not mention anything about the finance or the absence of V5c. I have the dated HPI report. That's not really my word against his, is it?
I can't push for the V5 because, as I explained, not being fully aware of how everything works yet, I had acknowledged its absence.
The deposit binds the contract, it says all the stuff like "I am entering into the contract to purchase the vehicle", "payment not refundable if I withdraw", "I will be personally liable for any other loss incurred by my withdrawing from the contract" (yeah, this bit sucks, might be cherry on the cake and give you a good laugh, but as someone said, hard to prove such a cost anyway). By a contract is void if important information has been withheld, this I'm pretty sure of. The car not officially belonging to him is pretty important information I'd think. And this I can prove.
All that jazz said:
OK. You clearly have all the answers already so I wish you the best of luck! 
Oh, please don't take it that way. I'm not trying to play smart here, this story is clearly showing I'm not quite. There was no sarcasm in my reply, I was geniunely asking if my situation was really "my word against his".And well, yeah, the son might end up in trouble as well. When I called the credit company, and they told me the car still belonged to them, they asked me for the name and phone number of the seller. Obviously I gave the son's name : the company belongs to him.
edo said:
Send the letter, but waste of time.
Tell your credit card company now, and also report to trading standards.
How could you possibly collect the car if he isnt requesting the V5 till you pay for it? You cant tax the car. So you'd pay for it and leave it there for 4 weeks??
The seller is not acting professionally. The mileage discrepancy is irrelevant - he's trying to sell a car with finance, a car he claims is his sons, yet they dont have the V5.
The problem is that, considering I did not know I could not tax the car without the V5, I acknowledge it's absence on the signed deposit slip. So I am guessing that I cannot use this reason to ask for my deposit back...Tell your credit card company now, and also report to trading standards.
How could you possibly collect the car if he isnt requesting the V5 till you pay for it? You cant tax the car. So you'd pay for it and leave it there for 4 weeks??
The seller is not acting professionally. The mileage discrepancy is irrelevant - he's trying to sell a car with finance, a car he claims is his sons, yet they dont have the V5.
loskie : Thanks, I'll talk to the CAB.
edo said:
Ok, well at least you have the finance issue and the mileage discrepancy (although I think we all agree that is probably a non issue).
The guy is a
, dont buy his car even if you do end up having to take him to small claims court.
Does the reciept say "non refundable" on it?
Yep, it says non-refundable if I withdraw. But that's not really what happens here right ? The fact that the car still belonged to the finance company at the moment of the deposit makes the contract void, doesn't it? The guy is a
, dont buy his car even if you do end up having to take him to small claims court.Does the reciept say "non refundable" on it?
But definitely, as I said before, I will not buy his car, that's certain. If I have to lose the £500, so be it.
Edited by Sawyer815 on Sunday 28th June 12:10
I have tried going to the guys house, did not happen. I can't quite force him into giving me my deposit back on the spot, can I?
I will still try to send the letter. There is a big chance it's just for him to gain some time, but it still kinda makes sense. If he just pays me back without a formal (written) request from me, I could then go "oh you broke the contract I'll sue you".
I will still try to send the letter. There is a big chance it's just for him to gain some time, but it still kinda makes sense. If he just pays me back without a formal (written) request from me, I could then go "oh you broke the contract I'll sue you".
0a said:
Unfortunately it sounds like he's not going to give up without a fight. Get a letter before action in the post giving him a deadline (14 days) to pay you back, otherwise you will use Moneyclaim online (the small claims court) to get your money back.
He will either be hoping you won't take it further, or he won't actually have money to pay you. Either way this should flush him out.
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/small-cla...
What a rubbish start to life in the UK - I'm sorry that you had this experience!
Problem is, if I understand well, legally it's not looking too good. It's very possible that he's in his right not to refund the deposit. If he had the slightest pinch of humanity, he would, because my reasons for cancelling the sale are genuine and understandable, but I'm fairly not certain court would state in my favor.He will either be hoping you won't take it further, or he won't actually have money to pay you. Either way this should flush him out.
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/small-cla...
What a rubbish start to life in the UK - I'm sorry that you had this experience!
So, considering it's around £40 to make a claim, then potentially more to bring the guy to a tribunal if he doesn't give up, and considering the guy very obviously has far more money than I have (or he's very good at pretending he does), I'm not sure it's a good idea.
Besides, don't be sorry. I've been careless. And, this small mishap excepted, I'm pretty happy with the start of my life in the UK at the moment!
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