RE: Caterham 270R: PH Fleet
Discussion
T0MMY said:
JamesHayward said:
I might be wrong but I do believe the reason they are no commonly used in RWD configurations is that they spin the wrong way. Therefore no gearbox fits them. S2000's are quite common though, mate of mine has a throttle bodied F20C in his locost and that goes like stink.
Ah ok, wondered why I'd never seen one as they seem a great choice. I never owned a Vti but had a go in one and thought the engine was fantastic; not that powerful but so responsive and willing to rev. An S2000 engine would be superb too but probably out of my price range. The 2.0 Zetec Tiger I went in was hugely disappointing compared to my MNR but maybe that engine was in a similar level of tune to the one in my Dad's Mondeo! That just hated being revved, almost to the point of being dieselesque. I think kitcars need a real screamer of an engine which is why bike engines are a good choice at the budget end of the market.Like you though, I found it can be exhausting to drive and you have to work them harder to get the power out. I'm grateful for the experience, but I now feel that car engines are more civilised for passengers to go out in and generally better for my requirements. Everyone has different needs though, which is why the market is as diverse as it is!
I would love one of these. I have driven a few caterhams and nothing comes close apart from bona fide race cars. I am sure other 7's are similar see the kit car forums for the debates :-)
I would also build it myself , though I would make use of the checking services that caterham provide as I wouldn't trust it until someone who isn't a numpty has checked it thoroughly.
One day ........ one day
I would also build it myself , though I would make use of the checking services that caterham provide as I wouldn't trust it until someone who isn't a numpty has checked it thoroughly.
One day ........ one day
Ben Lowden said:
I can see potential for us to write a whole other article on the kit car scene here! Now wouldn't that spark some debate. I do agree that on a tight budget a BEC (Bike Engined Car to those not in the know) is a winner which is why I went down that route in the first place with my MK, although it was always my aspiration to save up enough for a Caterham. BECs do have many benefits not limited to being easy to fit and work around with a contained gearbox, lighter than a car engine, high revving with a sequential box and the fact that they do feel utterly bonkers.
Like you though, I found it can be exhausting to drive and you have to work them harder to get the power out. I'm grateful for the experience, but I now feel that car engines are more civilised for passengers to go out in and generally better for my requirements. Everyone has different needs though, which is why the market is as diverse as it is!
I don't know why the BEC vs CEC thing is such an issue in the kitcar community really, seems simple to me...cheap, manic or civilised(ish), you can pick only 2. Cheap and manic but not civilised = BEC, cheap and civilised but not manic = modestly engined CEC, and manic and civilised (depending on how you're feeling) but not cheap = high end CECs. Like you though, I found it can be exhausting to drive and you have to work them harder to get the power out. I'm grateful for the experience, but I now feel that car engines are more civilised for passengers to go out in and generally better for my requirements. Everyone has different needs though, which is why the market is as diverse as it is!
If you can afford it, the latter is clearly the best of both worlds but if you can't, it's a simple question of where you want to sit between rawness and day to day usability. I only really wound up with a BEC as a real bargain happened to pop up and I'd swap it for an Atom or a fast Caterham in a flash.
Paneraij said:
If you want the Caterham 7 experience then buy a Caterham, if you want a Kit car experience buy a kit car. The two are different worlds and trust me no clone handles like a Caterham.
I'm not saying you're wrong as I've never driven a Caterham, nor 95% of the other 7 style kitcars that exist but I find it slightly hard to believe that none of them can match one. In terms of lap times they don't seem to be untouchable but to be fair that doesn't necessarily equate to handling from the perspective of driver enjoyment.It's certainly true that it shouldn't be assumed that any 500kg 7esque car will have amazing handling by default as some are real stinkers but there are also some very good ones out there. Of course a lot depends on how they're set up in the first place as most are very adjustable...get the geometry all wrong and any of them could be terrible.
T0MMY said:
I don't know why the BEC vs CEC thing is such an issue in the kitcar community really, seems simple to me...cheap, manic or civilised(ish), you can pick only 2. Cheap and manic but not civilised = BEC, cheap and civilised but not manic = modestly engined CEC, and manic and civilised (depending on how you're feeling) but not cheap = high end CECs.
My CEC is really quite uncivillised. 
Paneraij said:
If you want the Caterham 7 experience then buy a Caterham, if you want a Kit car experience buy a kit car. The two are different worlds and trust me no clone handles like a Caterham.
You missed out on "plastic replica", "component", and "bodged together from rusty old bits in a garage". 
T0MMY said:
I'm not saying you're wrong as I've never driven a Caterham, nor 95% of the other 7 style kitcars that exist but I find it slightly hard to believe that none of them can match one. In terms of lap times they don't seem to be untouchable but to be fair that doesn't necessarily equate to handling from the perspective of driver enjoyment.
It's certainly true that it shouldn't be assumed that any 500kg 7esque car will have amazing handling by default as some are real stinkers but there are also some very good ones out there. Of course a lot depends on how they're set up in the first place as most are very adjustable...get the geometry all wrong and any of them could be terrible.
I too thought that there couldn't be much difference and as such I have owned two Westfield's plus a couple of kit cars over the years. My last Westi was a very well sorted example, there was nothing else I could have realisticly improved on without spending alot of money and even then the gains were marginal.It's certainly true that it shouldn't be assumed that any 500kg 7esque car will have amazing handling by default as some are real stinkers but there are also some very good ones out there. Of course a lot depends on how they're set up in the first place as most are very adjustable...get the geometry all wrong and any of them could be terrible.
Whilst it was great fun it couldn't hold a candle to a Caterham in terms of handling and out right driver involvement.
I have learnt that there is only one car that gives the pure Seven experience.
CrutyRammers said:
My CEC is really quite uncivillised.
Well I guess civilised is a relative term in the world of kitcars
Looks nice by the way, I perved on your website.Paneraij said:
I too thought that there couldn't be much difference and as such I have owned two Westfield's plus a couple of kit cars over the years. My last Westi was a very well sorted example, there was nothing else I could have realisticly improved on without spending alot of money and even then the gains were marginal.
Whilst it was great fun it couldn't hold a candle to a Caterham in terms of handling and out right driver involvement.
I have learnt that there is only one car that gives the pure Seven experience.
Well as I say, I've not driven a Caterham nor most of the alternatives so I'll have to take your word for it but there are some very good handlers out there. Maybe not with the same level of build quality or ease of building but certainly with a similar level of all round performance.Whilst it was great fun it couldn't hold a candle to a Caterham in terms of handling and out right driver involvement.
I have learnt that there is only one car that gives the pure Seven experience.
Edited by T0MMY on Saturday 4th July 15:22
T0MMY said:
Well as I say, I've not driven a Caterham nor most of the alternatives so I'll have to take your word for it but there are some very good handlers out there. Maybe not with the same level of build quality or ease of building but certainly with a similar level of all round performance.
Its worth taking the time and having a test drive. I am sure you will have fun and then you can draw your own conclusion... But I reckon you to will see the light :-)Edited by T0MMY on Saturday 4th July 15:22
Paneraij said:
Its worth taking the time and having a test drive. I am sure you will have fun and then you can draw your own conclusion... But I reckon you to will see the light :-)
I'd need to both see the light and also see a large increase in my disposable income as I couldn't justify spending more than £10k on a rarely used toy! At that price you don't get much Caterham sadly.
Tractor lad said:
What are these like when the roads are rather patchy?
They are something I'd love to try but that super low stance must get a little busy on the rubbish roads we often face.
Any LSD too?
My M135i is brilliant 99% of the time but I did manage to find a road that upset it recently (very tight bends, bumpy; the only time I've needed an LSD and better throttle response).
I've said it before but it bears repetition - you will not believe just how quickly a Seven can be driven down a twisty road , in the right conditions - dry, well surfaced , no big bumps. Equally , you not believe how slowly you must drive a Seven in the wrong conditions - wet , bumpy. In the former case you'll humble a supercar and in the latter you'll be humbled by a diesel Astra. They are something I'd love to try but that super low stance must get a little busy on the rubbish roads we often face.
Any LSD too?
My M135i is brilliant 99% of the time but I did manage to find a road that upset it recently (very tight bends, bumpy; the only time I've needed an LSD and better throttle response).
But wet or dry , the sheer intimacy, response , driver involvement and feel of a Seven is shocking to those who have never driven one .
To think a Seven is all about speed is actually to miss the real point - which is that a Seven is an analogue car defined by what it doesn't have. So no ABS , not even power brakes , no power steering, no ESC, ABD, TCS and , in fact no acronyms at all .
To compare a M135i with a Seven is difficult . The BMW is infinitely better built , super all round transport , light years ahead in bad conditions . But the Seven is a Spitfire compared to a light exec jet - which would you rather fly for fun ? You'd take the Learjet to get to Zurich quickly but if you had an afternoon to practice aerobatics which would you do ?
El Guapo said:
Still waiting...
Seriously, chaps, you must have something on the build you can post.
Yup! It's here: http://www.pistonheads.com/regulars/ph-fleet/cater...Seriously, chaps, you must have something on the build you can post.
Next article to follow in the next couple of weeks. Thank you for your eager anticipation!
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