RE: BMW heads black to the future
Discussion
To me, all the problems being encountered with environmentally friendly methods of propulsion just go to show what a great solution petrol was in the first place. The only real issue I see with it is that eventually it will all run out (unless you're convinced CO2 is a problem - me? not so much), however if we were all to switch to electric cars, we'd soon have the same issues with the world's lithium supply. Given the effect on the local environment Lithium mining has, and the distances it has to be transported to be made into batteries, I fail to see how anything involving a huge amount of batteries can ever be considered kind to the environment - that's without even going there on what to do with the batteries at the end of their useful life. Sadly, everyone has got so fixated on the plant food "problem", that we seem to be creating far worse environmental problems for ourselves.
So from that perspective, unless someone develops a commercial MR Fusion, hydrogen would appear to be the way forwards, however then you introduce all new problems around hydrogen production and storage.
So in summary? I don't see petrol as a fuel source going away any time soon. Good to see there are other ideas out there other than fill a car full of laptop batteries and more bloody chargers out there though.
So from that perspective, unless someone develops a commercial MR Fusion, hydrogen would appear to be the way forwards, however then you introduce all new problems around hydrogen production and storage.
So in summary? I don't see petrol as a fuel source going away any time soon. Good to see there are other ideas out there other than fill a car full of laptop batteries and more bloody chargers out there though.
bodhi said:
To me, all the problems being encountered with environmentally friendly methods of propulsion just go to show what a great solution petrol was in the first place.
It is the issue with petrol. It's very hard to beat. It overcame steam and electric 100 years ago and even now with unbelievably improved battery capabilities people aren't buying them in any great numbers.The best solution would probably be to convert CO2 and water to petrol and thus making the entire process carbon neutral. Just need a Genetically Modified tree that makes petrol and then watch as forests appear overnight.
To me, the root of the problem is far more fundamental.
A learned person once said:
Energy can not be created or destroyed, merely changed from one form to another.
Thus all the time we are unable to capture what we waste producing what we use, we are in an ever decreasing cycle of availability. Reduce / recycle the waste and everybody's happy. Energy is a perpetual source in itself, the way in which we waste it prevents it from being so practically.McAndy said:
To me, the root of the problem is far more fundamental.
My TVR does this sort of stuff, it takes relatively refined hydrocarbons and turns them into large amounts of fun and mayhem A learned person once said:
Energy can not be created or destroyed, merely changed from one form to another.
Thus all the time we are unable to capture what we waste producing what we use, we are in an ever decreasing cycle of availability. Reduce / recycle the waste and everybody's happy. Energy is a perpetual source in itself, the way in which we waste it prevents it from being so practically.
ChilliWhizz said:
My TVR does this sort of stuff, it takes relatively refined hydrocarbons and turns them into large amounts of fun and mayhem
Which you then capture by drinking copious amounts of beer while riding the crest of the adrenaline wave and then pissing it away. So, all we have to do is convert ICE to run on piss and the world's problems are solved! 
bodhi said:
unless you're convinced CO2 is a problem - me? not so much
I don't mean to be insulting, but that's really just delusional, the overwhelming weigh of the scientific community agrees that CO2 is a major cause of global warming, and either way, it's not just CO2 which is a problem, there are many other pollutants produced by both petrol and diesel cars that it would be nice to cut down.I'm a massive fan of the petrol engine, but I just ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away.
problem with hydrogen is it's dangerous I would not like to be in an accident with one of those sitting in my car, your going to need a massively re-enforced fuel cell for this to be safe I reckon something else will come along before this ever gets mainstream IMO.
Probably some type of LNG fuel who knows
Probably some type of LNG fuel who knows
peter450 said:
problem with hydrogen is it's dangerous I would not like to be in an accident with one of those sitting in my car, your going to need a massively re-enforced fuel cell for this to be safe I reckon something else will come along before this ever gets mainstream IMO.
Probably some type of LNG fuel who knows
Prey tell how is hydrogen any more dangerous than LNG? Probably some type of LNG fuel who knows
They are both compressed light hyrdrocarbons, both highly pressurised in storage, and will both explode if given the chance.
Audi have created a diesel substitute from CO2 and water, but the problem with all these things is you need to use energy to make synthetic fuel. Hydrogen has to feature above electric cars, simply because you can fill the fuel tank in a matter of minuets rather than hours, and because the infrastructure is already there. It wont take much to add hydrogen to existing fuel stations.
Condi said:
Hydrogen has to feature above electric cars, simply because you can fill the fuel tank in a matter of minuets rather than hours, and because the infrastructure is already there. It wont take much to add hydrogen to existing fuel stations.
There is nothing what so ever stopping you from pumping 40 tons of fuel into current petrol storage tanks and switching the pumps onAnd i will happily stand and watch you do it
In a bunker
10 miles away
McTory said:
There is nothing what so ever stopping you from pumping 40 tons of fuel into current petrol storage tanks and switching the pumps on
And i will happily stand and watch you do it
In a bunker
10 miles away
Not sure if you're trying to be funny or facetious? And i will happily stand and watch you do it
In a bunker
10 miles away
My local filling station sells LPG, and very little (if any) change in infrastructure would be required to make it pump pressurised hydrogen.
Condi said:
Not sure if you're trying to be funny or facetious?
My local filling station sells LPG, and very little (if any) change in infrastructure would be required to make it pump pressurised hydrogen.
LPG is a relatively heavy gas that liquifies at low pressure. Hydrogen is stored as a gas compressed to a high pressure to get a reasonable amount in a storage tank, and still needs much more tankage for the same energy storage.My local filling station sells LPG, and very little (if any) change in infrastructure would be required to make it pump pressurised hydrogen.
Hydrogen also reacts (slowly) with steel, weakening it.
So no, none of the current infrastructure is directly suitable.
AW111 said:
Condi said:
Not sure if you're trying to be funny or facetious?
My local filling station sells LPG, and very little (if any) change in infrastructure would be required to make it pump pressurised hydrogen.
LPG is a relatively heavy gas that liquifies at low pressure. Hydrogen is stored as a gas compressed to a high pressure to get a reasonable amount in a storage tank, and still needs much more tankage for the same energy storage.My local filling station sells LPG, and very little (if any) change in infrastructure would be required to make it pump pressurised hydrogen.
Hydrogen also reacts (slowly) with steel, weakening it.
So no, none of the current infrastructure is directly suitable.
tand you know it
The shop selling out of date Mars bars would need no changes
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