RE: BMW heads black to the future

[iwantcheese5]

Fastdruid said:

2Btoo said:

Fastdruid said:

Hydrogen is an almost perfect fuel apart from the storage aspect and that is what needs solving.

Storage and distribution. Hydrogen isn't known for it's friendly and sociable nature, and needs to be kept very cold if it is not to boil away into the atmosphere.

Hydrogen cars are the future. But the distribution and storage problems will need to be overcome, and I can't see that happening. The inferior alternative is battery storage of energy and charging off the mains grid; something which is already in place and proven, and much less hassle than H2. It's highly likely therefore that hydrogen cars won't ever become mainstream, which is a shame.

Hydrogen is great, weight for weight three times as energy dense as petrol. Trouble is though that even when liquefied it only contains 1/4 of the energy of the same volume of petrol but needs a hefty tank and is tricky to keep there (high pressures or super cooling).

Distribution isn't tricky if the storage issue is solved. We manage distribution of petrol perfectly fine after all and I see no reason why (if storage was solved) we wouldn't have hydrogen tankers instead of petrol tankers.

IIRC Best solutions so far seem to be nano-sponges but I have no idea how good they are for storage or how close that is to reality let alone production.

Petrol is much safer at the pump than hydrogen, if you spill petrol you can see it as a puddle on the floor if you "spill" hydrogen you can't see it and won't be aware you are surrounded by a potential explosion. Similar problem if there's a leak in the system. Hydrogen can cause all sorts of surprise death...

[The Wookie]

Condi said:

Prey tell how is hydrogen any more dangerous than LNG?

They are both compressed light hyrdrocarbons, both highly pressurised in storage, and will both explode if given the chance.


Audi have created a diesel substitute from CO2 and water, but the problem with all these things is you need to use energy to make synthetic fuel. Hydrogen has to feature above electric cars, simply because you can fill the fuel tank in a matter of minuets rather than hours, and because the infrastructure is already there. It wont take much to add hydrogen to existing fuel stations.

Apart from the previously mentioned issue that it needs to be stored either cryogenically or at huge pressure (300-500bar), each of which comes with its own problems, the molecules of hydrogen are small enough to slowly permeate through virtually anything, including the tank and metal hoses that are used to contain it.

This means that anywhere it is stored, or a hydrogen vehicle is parked, needs to have hydrogen alarms and be well ventilated to avoid hydrogen collecting in roof spaces and being ignited by something innocuous like a light fitting. In fact I'm fairly sure buildings actually need to be assessed and approved to contain it. So garages, workshops, public car parks, etc. need to take it into consideration before they're chocked full of hydrogen cars.

Another issue is that you can't really naturally gather hydrogen in any significant quantity, it needs to be produced using energy too with all of the problems that come with that. In fact the irony is that currently the most common and efficient way of producing hydrogen is actually directly from coal and natural gas.

Finally there's also the problem that it's difficult to achieve the peak power output and response from a fuel cell that's needed for a car so you generally need a fairly hefty battery on top of the heavy tank and fuel cell gubbins to actually make a practical vehicle. That said it could be improved as technology improves but realistically practical Fuel Cells today are actually reliant on the development of the very technology they compete against.

Generally, with battery technology improving to the point where you can charge an EV for 200 odd miles in the space of half an hour and it increasingly looking like the limitation will soon be how fast you can get electricity to the battery rather than how fast the battery can take it. Combined with the problems of producing, storing and transporting Hydrogen, Fuel Cells are looking more and more like a Betamax technology every day.

If you're looking for a solution for fossil fuels without binning today's petrol station infrastructure then closed loop carbon cycles like Audi's technology or Methanol manufacture as pushed by Lotus in the past, powered by nuclear and or renewable energy, is the only practical way forward IMHO.

[Escort Si-130]

gsuk1 said:

Your spot on about the interest of 'green cars' most of them are so dull and boring. BMW are the only people who seem to make the cars looks cool and futuristic.

Bar the I3, its an ugly fking car; flipping geeky mobile.