RE: The £70K M3 CSL: Spotted
Discussion
Mike Rainbird said:
Sounds good Mike TREMAiNE said:
After reading your pretty big post (which was really interesting, btw), I concede that my comment is irrelevant!
Having said that, personally I still prefer to own a 360 than a CSL - it just appeals to me more. I've not been in a CSL admittedly, but I've seen several in the flesh and whilst I do respect them, they just don't give me that 'fuzzy feeling'!
That 'fuzzy feeling' comes from the drivers seat of the CSL, trying to replicate the sub 8 minute 'Ring lap Having said that, personally I still prefer to own a 360 than a CSL - it just appeals to me more. I've not been in a CSL admittedly, but I've seen several in the flesh and whilst I do respect them, they just don't give me that 'fuzzy feeling'!
I am fortunate enough to own two.
Have a completely standard 34k car and a 64k car with Supersprint and AP brakes.
The low mileage one has an easy life, the higher one has a harder life. Epic cars and lots of nonsense here.
Yes they have made money, and sure they will continue to do so but they feel special. The whole ownership experience feels special. From the rarity, the noise, the carbon fibre, the stance. It ticks so many boxes. It is nothing like a standard M3 or even CS.
The gearbox. I was pessimistic but would not swap for a manual. In sport mode, ferocity on max, hard acceleration the gear change is brutal, and on downshift the blip sublime.
The car isn't perfect but then it's not supposed to be. Expensive parts both mechanical and bodywork are my biggest worry with it.
Both will be around for some time in the household. For half the price of the car in this advert what else could you buy that offers so much fun?
Have a completely standard 34k car and a 64k car with Supersprint and AP brakes.
The low mileage one has an easy life, the higher one has a harder life. Epic cars and lots of nonsense here.
Yes they have made money, and sure they will continue to do so but they feel special. The whole ownership experience feels special. From the rarity, the noise, the carbon fibre, the stance. It ticks so many boxes. It is nothing like a standard M3 or even CS.
The gearbox. I was pessimistic but would not swap for a manual. In sport mode, ferocity on max, hard acceleration the gear change is brutal, and on downshift the blip sublime.
The car isn't perfect but then it's not supposed to be. Expensive parts both mechanical and bodywork are my biggest worry with it.
Both will be around for some time in the household. For half the price of the car in this advert what else could you buy that offers so much fun?
hot66 said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Welcome to pistonheads I am sure its a great machine to drive and it could go around the ring in two minutes for me but it can never hide the fact the its still only a 3 series and is based on a boring standard car in the first place.
I prefer something that is designed from the ground up as a sports car or track car rather than something tarted up...in fairness though with the money they fetch it certainly doesn't seem to bother the ones that own/buy them.
But you only 'think' this ...... as you admit you've not driven one .... I'm a massive porsche fan, air cooled and manual gearboxes only for me in what most would admit is a proper 'sports car' ( I have 2 parked next to my csl ) .... The CSL is no lesser a car and in some respects more fun. Even the gearbox ( which before driving one I'd convinced myself I wouldn't like) imho adds to the experience and I definitely wouldn't want a manual csl I am sure its a great machine to drive and it could go around the ring in two minutes for me but it can never hide the fact the its still only a 3 series and is based on a boring standard car in the first place.I prefer something that is designed from the ground up as a sports car or track car rather than something tarted up...in fairness though with the money they fetch it certainly doesn't seem to bother the ones that own/buy them.
The bottom line is the csl is an icon and a fantastic investment too and hats off to the guys/girls that have had the privilege of owning and experiencing them.
161BMW said:
Mike Rainbird said:
According to BMW engineers involved in the project, that is precisely what the CSL is all about though (hence why (like the new 991 GT3 / RS), it was only ever offered with the SMG gearbox). It wasn't designed for any other purpose than to take the production lap record for its class .
I have driven CSL and had a passenger ride courtesy of Nick Johnson..Sounded alright but didn't sound as loud as I had hoped or expected. I didn't push it anywhere near its limit but felt maybe a tad quicker.
gigglebug said:
Exactly how much time would a 35kg saving make around the ring? For the sake of the added weight I'd rather have the kit myself, it is a road car after all
As well as pretty mediocre brakes out of the box.... £65,000 for a car with a SMG gearbox and a small reduction in weight is not worth 4* as much as a standard E46 M3 in my opinion. You can have it with a proper manual gearbox and better yet, get the CS M3 and add the CSL airbox and it will give you everything you want from the CSL without the short comings. Perhaps this is one for the die hard M-Power enthusiasts but in my eyes its not a car that is worth £65,000. Guvernator said:
They were a good buy at £30-£35k but once they went above £50k is when they stopped being enthusiasts cars and fell into the hands of la-la land collectors. Any car which reaches this point immediately looses it's appeal for me I'm afraid.
Above is pretty much my feelings as well.. but I think anywhere even approaching £50k is mad.Great car, one of the best I have ever driven, no doubt about it, gearbox included.
If you bought one when they were what I deem sensible money, used it as intended then fair play, even more so if your still using it like its meant to be. I came close to buying one a couple of times years ago and didn't, other factors take priority. Do I regret not buying one then ? yeah, I of course I do , but not because of what I could sell it for now, but because I could of had a bit of craic with it without partaking in the car buying lunacy of 2015.
However to buy one at the mad money being asked currently being asked of some?
The way things are now , not just the CSL btw GT3's, GT2's etc as well, I reckon it's pretty much ruining things for genuine car (driving) enthusiasts. We all like to have a car that doesn't depreciate, why wouldn't you. However with increasing values cars become unattainable for a lot of people and exsisting owners will stop using cars as they are intended and I reckon they must become less enjoyable to own, and I am not talking about putting cars away during winter when the roads are salted. I am talking about not doing a continental trip because it will rack up mileage (Which is insane) or not doing a trackday because of the now massive cost to replace it if things go wrong (This I can understand).
Genuine question for the CSL owners , which I figure there are a lot positing on this thread and especially those who have owned theirs for a long time or who use them as intended, has the increase cost of replacement become a deciding factor in doing track days or do you watch mileage more?
Btw would I like a market correction? absolutely, even if my own car is worth less which has only really gone up a small bit.
If that meant someone who bought their ideal / dream car for driving overpaid massively, of course I would have sympathy because they could now buy it for less. But if you bought for investment, then no , tough luck, cars as investments is the root cause of this madness and serves you right.
Edited by DUBU on Tuesday 7th July 23:17
Edited by DUBU on Tuesday 7th July 23:19
Polarbert said:
I agree. Not having a stereo would really get on my nerves. I understand the engine sounds glorious, and I'll be purchasing a car with that engine shortly, but a stereo can make all the difference a lot of the time.
Yep..drove a stripped out car without even a radio/speakers for a while and after about 6 months part of me no longer cared that it was a few kg lighter because of it 
Nickbrapp said:
70K for a 10 year old car with no xenons?
Could be worst you could have a 24 year old Porsche 911 (964) RS for £145K ... http://www.cambridgemotorcompany.co.uk/stock-list....... also without Xenons, A/C or even back seats
rb26 said:
As well as pretty mediocre brakes out of the box.... £65,000 for a car with a SMG gearbox and a small reduction in weight is not worth 4* as much as a standard E46 M3 in my opinion. You can have it with a proper manual gearbox and better yet, get the CS M3 and add the CSL airbox and it will give you everything you want from the CSL without the short comings. Perhaps this is one for the die hard M-Power enthusiasts but in my eyes its not a car that is worth £65,000.
Obviously unless you are a BMW afficionado, then you won't have taken the time to research the truly wide ranging and massive differences between the two cars. I can assure you it is far more than your simplified statement.As to the weight reduction being "small", do you really not know how difficult it is to shift 110kg out of a car without completely compromising it's every day usability? Look at the weight difference between other companies that have produced cars with a similar ethos and look how practical they are by comparison.
A CS with a carbon airbox is still an overweight barge that just makes a nice noise and has all the other short-comings of a standard M3 (apart from the steering rack and brakes). Although it might make a better road car, put it in the environment that the CSL was designed for (track use) and it still wouldn't see which way the CSL went (you can't mask 110kg, no matter how you want to dress it up
).Just because it has a similar shape to the standard M3 means people think it is the same car bar a few bolt on components. However, that would be like comparing a normal Carerra with a GT3 RS or a Skyline GT-S with a GTR. They may look the same to people that don't know the detailed specs and the lower spec cars might make better every day propositions, but that is completely missing the point of the existence of the Motorsport orientated cars.. In each example, the higher spec model is designed to show what the manufacturer can do when they let their relevant departments go mad
.MattCSLnut said:
Nickbrapp said:
70K for a 10 year old car with no xenons?
Could be worst you could have a 24 year old Porsche 911 (964) RS for £145K ... http://www.cambridgemotorcompany.co.uk/stock-list....... also without Xenons, A/C or even back seats
king it, the F1 is going.DUBU said:
Above is pretty much my feelings as well.. but I think anywhere even approaching £50k is mad.
Great car, one of the best I have ever driven, no doubt about it, gearbox included.
If you bought one when they were what I deem sensible money, used it as intended then fair play, even more so if your still using it like its meant to be. I came close to buying one a couple of times years ago and didn't, other factors take priority. Do I regret not buying one then ? yeah, I of course I do , but not because of what I could sell it for now, but because I could of had a bit of craic with it without partaking in the car buying lunacy of 2015.
However to buy one at the mad money being asked currently being asked of some?
The way things are now , not just the CSL btw GT3's, GT2's etc as well, I reckon it's pretty much ruining things for genuine car (driving) enthusiasts. We all like to have a car that doesn't depreciate, why wouldn't you. However with increasing values cars become unattainable for a lot of people and exsisting owners will stop using cars as they are intended and I reckon they must become less enjoyable to own, and I am not talking about putting cars away during winter when the roads are salted. I am talking about not doing a continental trip because it will rack up mileage (Which is insane) or not doing a trackday because of the now massive cost to replace it if things go wrong (This I can understand).
Genuine question for the CSL owners , which I figure there are a lot positing on this thread and especially those who have owned theirs for a long time or who use them as intended, has the increase cost of replacement become a deciding factor in doing track days or do you watch mileage more?
Btw would I like a market correction? absolutely, even if my own car is worth less which has only really gone up a small bit.
If that meant someone who bought their ideal / dream car for driving overpaid massively, of course I would have sympathy because they could now buy it for less. But if you bought for investment, then no , tough luck, cars as investments is the root cause of this madness and serves you right.
Personally I don't use the car for mundane tasks in an attempt to keep the mileage down, but I still somehow manage to do 5k a year.Great car, one of the best I have ever driven, no doubt about it, gearbox included.
If you bought one when they were what I deem sensible money, used it as intended then fair play, even more so if your still using it like its meant to be. I came close to buying one a couple of times years ago and didn't, other factors take priority. Do I regret not buying one then ? yeah, I of course I do , but not because of what I could sell it for now, but because I could of had a bit of craic with it without partaking in the car buying lunacy of 2015.
However to buy one at the mad money being asked currently being asked of some?
The way things are now , not just the CSL btw GT3's, GT2's etc as well, I reckon it's pretty much ruining things for genuine car (driving) enthusiasts. We all like to have a car that doesn't depreciate, why wouldn't you. However with increasing values cars become unattainable for a lot of people and exsisting owners will stop using cars as they are intended and I reckon they must become less enjoyable to own, and I am not talking about putting cars away during winter when the roads are salted. I am talking about not doing a continental trip because it will rack up mileage (Which is insane) or not doing a trackday because of the now massive cost to replace it if things go wrong (This I can understand).
Genuine question for the CSL owners , which I figure there are a lot positing on this thread and especially those who have owned theirs for a long time or who use them as intended, has the increase cost of replacement become a deciding factor in doing track days or do you watch mileage more?
Btw would I like a market correction? absolutely, even if my own car is worth less which has only really gone up a small bit.
If that meant someone who bought their ideal / dream car for driving overpaid massively, of course I would have sympathy because they could now buy it for less. But if you bought for investment, then no , tough luck, cars as investments is the root cause of this madness and serves you right.
Edited by DUBU on Tuesday 7th July 23:17
Edited by DUBU on Tuesday 7th July 23:19
As to breakages, it's not something I worry about, as a lot of us have kept up the fully BMW warranty coverage.
The only thing that does concern me are damaging the two currently unavailable parts and that is the rear screen (special thinner light weight glass), so would have to be replaced with standard M3 one, and the same for the carbon roof, which would have to be replaced with the M3s steel version
.yonex said:
Rarer, proper gearbox and I'll bet right now that it will appreciate. The CSL is the headline car but the CS has most of the good bits and one crucial piece. An intake and remap and IMO it is the better car.
It has about 2% of what the CSL has, so hardly "most" LOL. The CS would still be a big fat fatty, just with a good voice
. Edited by Mike Rainbird on Wednesday 8th July 00:09
Minimal weight reduction, hardly any more power, and looks almost the same as the standard model - ridiculed when new for being poor value and too uncomfortable - now somehow getting snapped up by car collectors and greedy investment hunters to never be driven! I really wish 964 RS values would start dropping soon so I can trade my CSL in for one!
I really wish 964 RS values would start dropping soon so I can trade my CSL in for one! Mike Rainbird said:
Obviously unless you are a BMW afficionado, then you won't have taken the time to research the truly wide ranging and massive differences between the two cars. I can assure you it is far more than your simplified statement.
As to the weight reduction being "small", do you really not know how difficult it is to shift 110kg out of a car without completely compromising it's every day usability? Look at the weight difference between other companies that have produced cars with a similar ethos and look how practical they are by comparison.
A CS with a carbon airbox is still an overweight barge that just makes a nice noise and has all the other short-comings of a standard M3 (apart from the steering rack and brakes). Although it might make a better road car, put it in the environment that the CSL was designed for (track use) and it still wouldn't see which way the CSL went (you can't mask 110kg, no matter how you want to dress it up ).
Just because it has a similar shape to the standard M3 means people think it is the same car bar a few bolt on components. However, that would be like comparing a normal Carerra with a GT3 RS or a Skyline GT-S with a GTR. They may look the same to people that don't know the detailed specs and the lower spec cars might make better every day propositions, but that is completely missing the point of the existence of the Motorsport orientated cars.. In each example, the higher spec model is designed to show what the manufacturer can do when they let their relevant departments go mad.
I think your making the CSL sound a bit more special than it is. As to the weight reduction being "small", do you really not know how difficult it is to shift 110kg out of a car without completely compromising it's every day usability? Look at the weight difference between other companies that have produced cars with a similar ethos and look how practical they are by comparison.
A CS with a carbon airbox is still an overweight barge that just makes a nice noise and has all the other short-comings of a standard M3 (apart from the steering rack and brakes). Although it might make a better road car, put it in the environment that the CSL was designed for (track use) and it still wouldn't see which way the CSL went (you can't mask 110kg, no matter how you want to dress it up
).Just because it has a similar shape to the standard M3 means people think it is the same car bar a few bolt on components. However, that would be like comparing a normal Carerra with a GT3 RS or a Skyline GT-S with a GTR. They may look the same to people that don't know the detailed specs and the lower spec cars might make better every day propositions, but that is completely missing the point of the existence of the Motorsport orientated cars.. In each example, the higher spec model is designed to show what the manufacturer can do when they let their relevant departments go mad
.I have an CS manual and you can loose circa 80-90kgs with ditching the front seats (30kgs each) for Recaros and also a lightweight battery and exhaust. Basically, combined with a few other bits it's easy to loose 100kgs without compromising anything
Whack on a remapped Carbon airbox and you have 360bhp......and a manual gearbox.
Terminator X said:
Awesome, have a pop at us for not knowing something then when asked to explain refuse to do so.
TX.
Not having a pop at all. TX.
There is enough info about both for and against a CSL gearbox.
Personally I love it. Many think it's trash though and my point was that many who decry it have possibly never tried one out for size. Just jumped on the first bandwagon that happened to be passing by.
If you want info on the SMG2 there are many thoughts on it written by people who know more about this stuff than I do. As said, I love it and for me, that's what matters seeing as it's in my car :-)
jmcc42uk said:
I think your making the CSL sound a bit more special than it is.
I have an CS manual and you can loose circa 80-90kgs with ditching the front seats (30kgs each) for Recaros and also a lightweight battery and exhaust. Basically, combined with a few other bits it's easy to loose 100kgs without compromising anything
Whack on a remapped Carbon airbox and you have 360bhp......and a manual gearbox.
And I think you're making the CSL sound a bit less special than it really is I have an CS manual and you can loose circa 80-90kgs with ditching the front seats (30kgs each) for Recaros and also a lightweight battery and exhaust. Basically, combined with a few other bits it's easy to loose 100kgs without compromising anything
Whack on a remapped Carbon airbox and you have 360bhp......and a manual gearbox.
What you have proposed would be a lighter, faster M3, but still very different in character to what BMW built with these cars - the list of changes and developments for the CSL runs far longer than a few written lines. And it also has a manual gearbox, one that works brilliantly with the car despite what most people want to believe
I also like the standard M3, they're an excellent car and tick an awful lot of boxes
Edited by Leins on Wednesday 8th July 01:05
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