RE: The £70K M3 CSL: Spotted
Discussion
jmcc42uk said:
I think your making the CSL sound a bit more special than it is.
I have an CS manual and you can loose circa 80-90kgs with ditching the front seats (30kgs each) for Recaros and also a lightweight battery and exhaust. Basically, combined with a few other bits it's easy to loose 100kgs without compromising anything
Whack on a remapped Carbon airbox and you have 360bhp......and a manual gearbox.
Yes. But it won't be a CSL.I have an CS manual and you can loose circa 80-90kgs with ditching the front seats (30kgs each) for Recaros and also a lightweight battery and exhaust. Basically, combined with a few other bits it's easy to loose 100kgs without compromising anything
Whack on a remapped Carbon airbox and you have 360bhp......and a manual gearbox.
As far as I recall the extensive changes of standard M3 to CSL are quite extensive
While a lot of it the weight savings will be things like
Seats
CFRP interior
Lightweight battery
Lighter exhaust
CFRP roof
There are many more detailed smaller weight saving changes
I remember someone making a list
That would probably get you the bulk of the weight saving
Stick on some Pilot Sport Cups and a very good driver
And you can easily keep up with a CSL
Well should be able to I think
The CSL is basically I think BMW marketed it as M3 but dialled to 11 / 10
PS
The guy with a low mileage CSL 34k mileage and average mileage CSL
Boy I wish I had your collection to go with mine
While a lot of it the weight savings will be things like
Seats
CFRP interior
Lightweight battery
Lighter exhaust
CFRP roof
There are many more detailed smaller weight saving changes
I remember someone making a list
That would probably get you the bulk of the weight saving
Stick on some Pilot Sport Cups and a very good driver
And you can easily keep up with a CSL
Well should be able to I think
The CSL is basically I think BMW marketed it as M3 but dialled to 11 / 10
PS
The guy with a low mileage CSL 34k mileage and average mileage CSL
Boy I wish I had your collection to go with mine
jmcc42uk said:
I think your making the CSL sound a bit more special than it is.
I have an CS manual and you can loose circa 80-90kgs with ditching the front seats (30kgs each) for Recaros and also a lightweight battery and exhaust. Basically, combined with a few other bits it's easy to loose 100kgs without compromising anything
Whack on a remapped Carbon airbox and you have 360bhp......and a manual gearbox.
You really are proving your lack of understanding with posts like this LOL. Losing 80-90kgs by removing just the front seats? Let's go with your figures for a minute and say that the front seats are 30kg and you remove both of them saving 60kg, firstly that is 20-30kg off your figure - and then what are you going to sit on - the carpets? You're going to put back in 15kg each side when you put the seats and subframes similar to the CSL, so removing the seats only gets you a net gain of minus 30kg. You still have another 50-60kg to remove to get to even your target let alone what BMW achieved...... You need a rethink LOL. You can do it, but you have to gut the car to do so (if you haven't got the budget to use ALL the CSL parts).I have an CS manual and you can loose circa 80-90kgs with ditching the front seats (30kgs each) for Recaros and also a lightweight battery and exhaust. Basically, combined with a few other bits it's easy to loose 100kgs without compromising anything
Whack on a remapped Carbon airbox and you have 360bhp......and a manual gearbox.
Lets play your game though and say that you somehow managed to duplicate both the weight savings and the power increases (fitting the carbon airbox, higher lift CSL cams and larger CSL inlet valves), so had a perfect match for the CSL in both power and weight. Your car would STILL be slower
. That shonky SMG gearbox you hate so much shifts gears in 80ms (0.08s), so over a lap of the 'ring or a few laps on a short circuit, you would still be several seconds behind as your manual shifting could never match this.....I forgot to add that if your car had a sunroof as well, all changing the seats would do is get it down to the weight of a non-sun roof equipped M3, so nowhere near a CSL
.Edited by Mike Rainbird on Wednesday 8th July 07:26
Edited by Mike Rainbird on Wednesday 8th July 09:02
like a GT3 and GT3RS, the CSL is the sum of the parts that make it very special, rare, sought after and simply a brilliant drive. that is why they are going up like the GT Porsches.
drive a normal E46m3 and then a CSL and its like you are in a totally different machine.
I think it was tiff on 5th gear that took them round Anglesey and the CSL was 2-3 secs quicker a lap and that's on a very short 1 minute lap. imagine what a race team would spend for that gain? £50K? who knows.
I have owned 2 CSLs (black and grey) and one of the best cars I ever been a custodian of. such great balance. moved to a GT3 as I wanted to do that and itch that scratch. the CSL is a much better balanced car, far better on the road and you can take far more liberties in the CSL. plus my lack of talent does not help ;-)
keep on kidding yourself that if you strip you £5k normal E46 M3, add some fancy suspension, beef up the brakes, go on a diet and add some cups then you have a CSL. guess what in a years time it will still be worth £5k. ha ha. meanwhile the CSL has gone up more than twice what your normal M3 is worth ;-)
drive a normal E46m3 and then a CSL and its like you are in a totally different machine.
I think it was tiff on 5th gear that took them round Anglesey and the CSL was 2-3 secs quicker a lap and that's on a very short 1 minute lap. imagine what a race team would spend for that gain? £50K? who knows.
I have owned 2 CSLs (black and grey) and one of the best cars I ever been a custodian of. such great balance. moved to a GT3 as I wanted to do that and itch that scratch. the CSL is a much better balanced car, far better on the road and you can take far more liberties in the CSL. plus my lack of talent does not help ;-)
keep on kidding yourself that if you strip you £5k normal E46 M3, add some fancy suspension, beef up the brakes, go on a diet and add some cups then you have a CSL. guess what in a years time it will still be worth £5k. ha ha. meanwhile the CSL has gone up more than twice what your normal M3 is worth ;-)
161BMW said:
The one thing with CSL ownership currently besides the prices is some CSL parts are now NLA
As far as I am aware, at the moment it is just the roof and rear screen that is currently NLA. Obviously if you break the rear screen, then you would have to fit the thicker glassed standard M3 version (which would be hard to tell), but the roof would be a problem.I suspect if there were enough orders placed from dealers for the roof they would have another batch made, as that is how they seem to work, they make them in batches.
161BMW said:
As far as I recall the extensive changes of standard M3 to CSL are quite extensive
While a lot of it the weight savings will be things like
Seats
CFRP interior
Lightweight battery
Lighter exhaust
CFRP roof
There are many more detailed smaller weight saving changes
I remember someone making a list
That would probably get you the bulk of the weight saving
Stick on some Pilot Sport Cups and a very good driver
And you can easily keep up with a CSL
Well should be able to I think
The CSL is basically I think BMW marketed it as M3 but dialled to 11 / 10
PS
The guy with a low mileage CSL 34k mileage and average mileage CSL
Boy I wish I had your collection to go with mine
Yep, the list goes on like some obsessive OCD list - thinner glass, full carbon front bumper (which can be lifted with your little finger), larger hollow ARBs, alloy suspension components, yada, yada While a lot of it the weight savings will be things like
Seats
CFRP interior
Lightweight battery
Lighter exhaust
CFRP roof
There are many more detailed smaller weight saving changes
I remember someone making a list
That would probably get you the bulk of the weight saving
Stick on some Pilot Sport Cups and a very good driver
And you can easily keep up with a CSL
Well should be able to I think
The CSL is basically I think BMW marketed it as M3 but dialled to 11 / 10
PS
The guy with a low mileage CSL 34k mileage and average mileage CSL
Boy I wish I had your collection to go with mine
.They have gone round the whole car and seen where they can make savings and have done so everywhere, but also in all the right places so that the car sticks to their 50/50 weight distribution mantra. So it isn't some hap-hazard thing - it is well thought out....
161BMW said:
The one thing with CSL ownership currently besides the prices is some CSL parts are now NLA
Have been living with this problem for years with an E30 M3, I ordered a crank sensor for it in August last year, should arrive soon I am told....luckily it turned out not be be at fault so I have been able to continue driving. I am sure this is the same for many older cars, but I guess the issue gets larger as the number produced becomes smaller, there were about 17K E30 M3's and only 1400 CSL's.
I suppose it depends where you are coming from, for me, I could not bring myself to spend seventy grand on an E46 M3 of an type, but that is because I dont have that kind of budget and even if I did, I still wouldnt, but if I had several hundred thousand spare, or millions I would probably take a gamble at that money to see what all the fuss is about and stick it away and hope it retains its value or increases.
For my seventy grand now there are so many other cars that would grab my attention.
Also, it is getting spoken of in reverential terms, at the time it got good but not stellar reviews from what I remember, things mature and their significance becomes apparent but I think it has got as significant as its going to get in terms of driving and eventually just becomes a way of moving money about for the very wealthy, like paintings and other high value items.
I think the horse has well and truly bolted on these, question is now what is the next CSL ? the forumla seems pretty simple, a lightened, improved, limited run version of something already half decent, and buy it whilst it still hasnt been noticed, not sure how much it being German matters, as its always the German ones that go mental, and the odd Italian.
Then there is the matter of whether we are in a bubble or whether it is just now how things are, a bigger, connected, global market and they arent making any more of these.
For my seventy grand now there are so many other cars that would grab my attention.
Also, it is getting spoken of in reverential terms, at the time it got good but not stellar reviews from what I remember, things mature and their significance becomes apparent but I think it has got as significant as its going to get in terms of driving and eventually just becomes a way of moving money about for the very wealthy, like paintings and other high value items.
I think the horse has well and truly bolted on these, question is now what is the next CSL ? the forumla seems pretty simple, a lightened, improved, limited run version of something already half decent, and buy it whilst it still hasnt been noticed, not sure how much it being German matters, as its always the German ones that go mental, and the odd Italian.
Then there is the matter of whether we are in a bubble or whether it is just now how things are, a bigger, connected, global market and they arent making any more of these.
Mike Rainbird said:
It has about 2% of what the CSL has, so hardly "most" LOL.
The CS would still be a big fat fatty, just with a good voice.
I wonder how many people obsessed with weight include the driver The CS would still be a big fat fatty, just with a good voice
. Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 8th July 00:09
Besides, the SMG kills it totally for me. Not interested in a sequential shift, especially an early one which everyone slated even when it was launched.
yonex said:
MattCSLnut said:
Nickbrapp said:
70K for a 10 year old car with no xenons?
Could be worst you could have a 24 year old Porsche 911 (964) RS for £145K ... http://www.cambridgemotorcompany.co.uk/stock-list....... also without Xenons, A/C or even back seats
king it, the F1 is going.
Look back at this price in 5 years time and it will look good value .
Producing 360 bhp and an incredible sound from the 6 cylinder 24v 3246 cc engine and CSL-only air intake, accelerates from 0-60 in 4.8 seconds, reaching a potential (de-restricted) top speed of around 161 mph.
The lightweight roof and body panels, adjustable gearbox and throttle response, track mode, CSL only lightweight one-piece seats and semi-slick Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tyres make for an incredibly exciting and highly addictive driving experience. In the words of BMW DTM and Touring Car champion Steve Soper, the M3 CSL “feels and sounds so much like a race car, I’m surprised it’s road legal”.
Producing 360 bhp and an incredible sound from the 6 cylinder 24v 3246 cc engine and CSL-only air intake, accelerates from 0-60 in 4.8 seconds, reaching a potential (de-restricted) top speed of around 161 mph.
The lightweight roof and body panels, adjustable gearbox and throttle response, track mode, CSL only lightweight one-piece seats and semi-slick Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tyres make for an incredibly exciting and highly addictive driving experience. In the words of BMW DTM and Touring Car champion Steve Soper, the M3 CSL “feels and sounds so much like a race car, I’m surprised it’s road legal”.
nwates said:
Look back at this price in 5 years time and it will look good value .
Producing 360 bhp and an incredible sound from the 6 cylinder 24v 3246 cc engine and CSL-only air intake, accelerates from 0-60 in 4.8 seconds, reaching a potential (de-restricted) top speed of around 161 mph.
The lightweight roof and body panels, adjustable gearbox and throttle response, track mode, CSL only lightweight one-piece seats and semi-slick Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tyres make for an incredibly exciting and highly addictive driving experience. In the words of BMW DTM and Touring Car champion Steve Soper, the M3 CSL “feels and sounds so much like a race car, I’m surprised it’s road legal”.
The 161mph is the speed WITH the limiter, which is an indicated 167mph. The official derestricted speed is 174mph (on the flat) Producing 360 bhp and an incredible sound from the 6 cylinder 24v 3246 cc engine and CSL-only air intake, accelerates from 0-60 in 4.8 seconds, reaching a potential (de-restricted) top speed of around 161 mph.
The lightweight roof and body panels, adjustable gearbox and throttle response, track mode, CSL only lightweight one-piece seats and semi-slick Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tyres make for an incredibly exciting and highly addictive driving experience. In the words of BMW DTM and Touring Car champion Steve Soper, the M3 CSL “feels and sounds so much like a race car, I’m surprised it’s road legal”.
:
With a down-hill stretch, I'm sure it would go faster
.Edited by Mike Rainbird on Wednesday 8th July 09:54
Edited by Mike Rainbird on Wednesday 8th July 10:11
jmcc42uk said:
Mike Rainbird said:
Obviously unless you are a BMW afficionado, then you won't have taken the time to research the truly wide ranging and massive differences between the two cars. I can assure you it is far more than your simplified statement.
As to the weight reduction being "small", do you really not know how difficult it is to shift 110kg out of a car without completely compromising it's every day usability? Look at the weight difference between other companies that have produced cars with a similar ethos and look how practical they are by comparison.
A CS with a carbon airbox is still an overweight barge that just makes a nice noise and has all the other short-comings of a standard M3 (apart from the steering rack and brakes). Although it might make a better road car, put it in the environment that the CSL was designed for (track use) and it still wouldn't see which way the CSL went (you can't mask 110kg, no matter how you want to dress it up ).
Just because it has a similar shape to the standard M3 means people think it is the same car bar a few bolt on components. However, that would be like comparing a normal Carerra with a GT3 RS or a Skyline GT-S with a GTR. They may look the same to people that don't know the detailed specs and the lower spec cars might make better every day propositions, but that is completely missing the point of the existence of the Motorsport orientated cars.. In each example, the higher spec model is designed to show what the manufacturer can do when they let their relevant departments go mad.
I think your making the CSL sound a bit more special than it is. As to the weight reduction being "small", do you really not know how difficult it is to shift 110kg out of a car without completely compromising it's every day usability? Look at the weight difference between other companies that have produced cars with a similar ethos and look how practical they are by comparison.
A CS with a carbon airbox is still an overweight barge that just makes a nice noise and has all the other short-comings of a standard M3 (apart from the steering rack and brakes). Although it might make a better road car, put it in the environment that the CSL was designed for (track use) and it still wouldn't see which way the CSL went (you can't mask 110kg, no matter how you want to dress it up
).Just because it has a similar shape to the standard M3 means people think it is the same car bar a few bolt on components. However, that would be like comparing a normal Carerra with a GT3 RS or a Skyline GT-S with a GTR. They may look the same to people that don't know the detailed specs and the lower spec cars might make better every day propositions, but that is completely missing the point of the existence of the Motorsport orientated cars.. In each example, the higher spec model is designed to show what the manufacturer can do when they let their relevant departments go mad
.I have an CS manual and you can loose circa 80-90kgs with ditching the front seats (30kgs each) for Recaros and also a lightweight battery and exhaust. Basically, combined with a few other bits it's easy to loose 100kgs without compromising anything
Whack on a remapped Carbon airbox and you have 360bhp......and a manual gearbox.
in a CS (that I killed in a crash), I can tell you that the CS feels like a normal M3. The CSL feels very different - much tighter and more precise.
Its funny reading this thread. The same arguments were made around the 964RS, 968CS and Megane R26.R. I have spent some time researching the changes made to all of those apart from the 964 from their base car and no doubt the changes made to the CSL are the most extensive and expensive/difficult to replicate amongst those 3 by a considerable margin.
Lets deconstruct some of the debate made on forums over a long period of time for a moment. Say for example you get 80-90 Kg out of a CS by putting bucket seats up front and removing all the rear seat, belts, tools etc. in the boot. Next then you need the carbon airbox and and pay someone to map it. Already you have spent a couple to few £K and still have a car which looks like a boggo M3. Now for sake of argument you want to work on the aero and make it look more CSL with the front bumper/apron and spoilers etc. etc. It doesn't take long before one has spanked the thick end of £10K into a CS, added nothing to that cars value but is still a few Kg and many detail odds and ends away from a CSL.
Its the same for all of the specials, trying to replicate the factory car is nearly always hideously time consuming and expensive and utterly pointless. If one really wanted a track slag from boggo car you would just look at doing the race component mods to what ever level you feel comfortable with (AP brake kit, monotube coilovers etc.) and forget burning money making a replica, utterly pointless. The debate then about which end point is a better car has always been rather meaningless.
Lets deconstruct some of the debate made on forums over a long period of time for a moment. Say for example you get 80-90 Kg out of a CS by putting bucket seats up front and removing all the rear seat, belts, tools etc. in the boot. Next then you need the carbon airbox and and pay someone to map it. Already you have spent a couple to few £K and still have a car which looks like a boggo M3. Now for sake of argument you want to work on the aero and make it look more CSL with the front bumper/apron and spoilers etc. etc. It doesn't take long before one has spanked the thick end of £10K into a CS, added nothing to that cars value but is still a few Kg and many detail odds and ends away from a CSL.
Its the same for all of the specials, trying to replicate the factory car is nearly always hideously time consuming and expensive and utterly pointless. If one really wanted a track slag from boggo car you would just look at doing the race component mods to what ever level you feel comfortable with (AP brake kit, monotube coilovers etc.) and forget burning money making a replica, utterly pointless. The debate then about which end point is a better car has always been rather meaningless.
The CS was never made to rival CSL
Just added a few choice extras steering and brakes which were the standard car weak points (steering & brakes)
Shame they never offered 6 pot front / 4 pot rear brakes as an option
Shame they had no CFRP airbox
Initially made for USA under E46 M3 Competition Package because they wouldn't be getting the CSL
The launch of the CS was delayed in UK to 2005 to avoid pissing off CSL owners who spent what £60k
CSLs were made in the exact numbers originally demanded when it was launched
However when BMW revealed it would cost £60k a lot of ppl who originally wanted one didn't want one anymore and couldn't see why for nearly 50% more the price of standard M3 in a straight line the performance difference is not that significant. Obviously the Nirburgring times r different.
What happened was brand new CSLs struggled to sell and I believe you could get them new in 2004.
2004-2007 lightly used CSL was about the same price as a then new E46 M3 CS
Why is CSL so expensive then at £60k ?
1. Demand supply
More you build more you can do economies of scale
Demand for CSL would never be as big as standard car
2. Expensive R&D
CFRP was expensive techniques developed by BMW
Plus all the R&D into designed and manufacturing and testing CSL
3. Law of diminishing returns
The reason it seems so hideously expensive for a (relatively) smaller performance gain is because of this law
It requires a lot of effort for diminishing returns
Because remember is based on the standard m3 so there is only so much they can change unless maybe they change the layout from front engined to mid engined etc which is more R&D
And then the standard M3 is based on the standard 330Ci Coupe so would never have the performer asvantagesx offered by a ground up sports car / super car such as Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche 911, Cayman in terms of say a mid engine layout, lower CoG etc.
Just added a few choice extras steering and brakes which were the standard car weak points (steering & brakes)
Shame they never offered 6 pot front / 4 pot rear brakes as an option
Shame they had no CFRP airbox
Initially made for USA under E46 M3 Competition Package because they wouldn't be getting the CSL
The launch of the CS was delayed in UK to 2005 to avoid pissing off CSL owners who spent what £60k
CSLs were made in the exact numbers originally demanded when it was launched
However when BMW revealed it would cost £60k a lot of ppl who originally wanted one didn't want one anymore and couldn't see why for nearly 50% more the price of standard M3 in a straight line the performance difference is not that significant. Obviously the Nirburgring times r different.
What happened was brand new CSLs struggled to sell and I believe you could get them new in 2004.
2004-2007 lightly used CSL was about the same price as a then new E46 M3 CS
Why is CSL so expensive then at £60k ?
1. Demand supply
More you build more you can do economies of scale
Demand for CSL would never be as big as standard car
2. Expensive R&D
CFRP was expensive techniques developed by BMW
Plus all the R&D into designed and manufacturing and testing CSL
3. Law of diminishing returns
The reason it seems so hideously expensive for a (relatively) smaller performance gain is because of this law
It requires a lot of effort for diminishing returns
Because remember is based on the standard m3 so there is only so much they can change unless maybe they change the layout from front engined to mid engined etc which is more R&D
And then the standard M3 is based on the standard 330Ci Coupe so would never have the performer asvantagesx offered by a ground up sports car / super car such as Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche 911, Cayman in terms of say a mid engine layout, lower CoG etc.
Edited by 161BMW on Wednesday 8th July 10:34
German stripped out coupe for 70k? GT3 and I'm not even much of a Porsche fan. That or I'd take that orange '72 CSL in the classifieds and 10k in change/a Fisher Fury. What the '72 lacks in modern day pace, it more than makes up for it with its sense of occasion and 11 out of 10 for the cool factor. It can only go up in value too...
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