RE: The £70K M3 CSL: Spotted

[Mike Rainbird]

One of those "horrible" reviews of the CSL

[Rick H]

Yanto said:

Couldn't care less where prices are. Bought 6 years ago, put 30k miles on and won't change pattern of use if it's worth 2p or £100k. Fantastic car.

Absolutely in agreement.

[Zod]

hedo10 said:

German stripped out coupe for 70k? GT3 and I'm not even much of a Porsche fan. That or I'd take that orange '72 CSL in the classifieds and 10k in change/a Fisher Fury. What the '72 lacks in modern day pace, it more than makes up for it with its sense of occasion and 11 out of 10 for the cool factor. It can only go up in value too...

Registered over six years ago and you've been waiting to write this as your first post?

[Leins]

Mike Rainbird said:

nwates said:

Look back at this price in 5 years time and it will look good value .
Producing 360 bhp and an incredible sound from the 6 cylinder 24v 3246 cc engine and CSL-only air intake, accelerates from 0-60 in 4.8 seconds, reaching a potential (de-restricted) top speed of around 161 mph.
The lightweight roof and body panels, adjustable gearbox and throttle response, track mode, CSL only lightweight one-piece seats and semi-slick Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tyres make for an incredibly exciting and highly addictive driving experience. In the words of BMW DTM and Touring Car champion Steve Soper, the M3 CSL “feels and sounds so much like a race car, I’m surprised it’s road legal”.

The 161mph is the speed WITH the limiter, which is an indicated 167mph. The official derestricted speed is 174mph (on the flat) :


With a down-hill stretch, I'm sure it would go faster .

Edited by Mike Rainbird on Wednesday 8th July 09:54

Edited by Mike Rainbird on Wednesday 8th July 10:11

Also bear in mind that was with driver and two passengers, and none of us were small lads, plus a (cardboard ) boot-full of luggage. This was just north of Munich, having only done fuel-stops since Rotterdam, and in convoy with two other CSLs and then a German-reg 1M that decide to join us for a while, although he got left behind at about an indicated 170mph. Great day!

[Chapppers]

Mine's still limited but I had just over 170 indicated in 5th gear round the Gaydon high speed track last year, quite a surprise from a daily driver

[bloomen]

I remember nearly buying a Sport Evo E30 for £6500 in Italy in the early 2000s. A bit ropey it were. Nearly the price of a house for one now? Hmm, I'll stick to driving one in computer games.

I also remember the bubble of the late 80s and this one is spreading further and wider. Maybe it's the new paradigm. Funnily enough that's exactly what everyone has always thought until it most definitely was not.

I can see cars with real provenance holding up to an extent. People paying twice as much as a couple of years ago for middle aged production cars, good luck finding that greater fool a while down the road.

[Mike Rainbird]

hedo10 said:

German stripped out coupe for 70k? GT3 and I'm not even much of a Porsche fan. That or I'd take that orange '72 CSL in the classifieds and 10k in change/a Fisher Fury. What the '72 lacks in modern day pace, it more than makes up for it with its sense of occasion and 11 out of 10 for the cool factor. It can only go up in value too...

I am a proper Porsche fan, but the 996 GT3 (despite it's power AND weight advantage) is slower around the 'ring than the CSL. It wasn't until the RS model was released that Porsche were able to beat the CSLs time (and only then by a couple of seconds). Now given that the RS models were supposed to make close to 400bhp (my mate's one dynoed even fractionally more), it goes to show how well balanced the CSL's chassis is that despite being over 40bhp down and 40kg heavier, it is so close.

The corner speed (able to generate 1.6g!) of the CSL is just otherworldly and has to be experienced to be believed.

[Mermaid]

Mike Rainbird said:

I am a proper Porsche fan, but the 996 GT3 (despite it's power AND weight advantage) is slower around the 'ring than the CSL. It wasn't until the RS model was released that Porsche were able to beat the CSLs time (and only then by a couple of seconds). Now given that the RS models were supposed to make close to 400bhp (my mate's one dynoed even fractionally more), it goes to show how well balanced the CSL's chassis is that despite being over 40bhp down and 40kg heavier, it is so close.

The corner speed (able to generate 1.6g!) of the CSL is just otherworldly and has to be experienced to be believed.

The power of Cups

[Zod]

Mermaid said:

Mike Rainbird said:

I am a proper Porsche fan, but the 996 GT3 (despite it's power AND weight advantage) is slower around the 'ring than the CSL. It wasn't until the RS model was released that Porsche were able to beat the CSLs time (and only then by a couple of seconds). Now given that the RS models were supposed to make close to 400bhp (my mate's one dynoed even fractionally more), it goes to show how well balanced the CSL's chassis is that despite being over 40bhp down and 40kg heavier, it is so close.

The corner speed (able to generate 1.6g!) of the CSL is just otherworldly and has to be experienced to be believed.

The power of Cups

Switching into an E60 M5 brought a rude awakening. Very fast on the straights, but much slower in tight corners.

[Mermaid]

Zod said:

Switching into an E60 M5 brought a rude awakening. Very fast on the straights, but much slower in tight corners.

& the weight, less focused chassis, more unsprung weight etc etc. but more luxury, Nice pair to have.

[hedo10]

Zod said:

hedo10 said:

German stripped out coupe for 70k? GT3 and I'm not even much of a Porsche fan. That or I'd take that orange '72 CSL in the classifieds and 10k in change/a Fisher Fury. What the '72 lacks in modern day pace, it more than makes up for it with its sense of occasion and 11 out of 10 for the cool factor. It can only go up in value too...

Registered over six years ago and you've been waiting to write this as your first post?

With feedback like yours, is it any wonder?

[Mermaid]

]

hedo10 said:

German stripped out coupe for 70k? GT3 and I'm not even much of a Porsche fan. That or I'd take that orange '72 CSL in the classifieds and 10k in change/a Fisher Fury. What the '72 lacks in modern day pace, it more than makes up for it with its sense of occasion and 11 out of 10 for the cool factor. It can only go up in value too...

The original CSL, and in many ways the best will keep rewarding - BMW's 911RS.

[Zod]

Mermaid] said:

hedo10 said:

German stripped out coupe for 70k? GT3 and I'm not even much of a Porsche fan. That or I'd take that orange '72 CSL in the classifieds and 10k in change/a Fisher Fury. What the '72 lacks in modern day pace, it more than makes up for it with its sense of occasion and 11 out of 10 for the cool factor. It can only go up in value too...

The original CSL, and in many ways the best will keep rewarding - BMW's 911RS.

There's a Batmobile in the Classifieds for £200K. E9 CSLs cheaper at £50-£60K

[161BMW]

I would like to see what a standard M3 with Cups can do around the ring

You don't have to be Einstein to work out the CSLs Nurburgring time was helped a lot by the tyres especially if they generated "1.6G" ?

[Mike Rainbird]

161BMW said:

I would like to see what a standard M3 with Cups can do around the ring

You don't have to be Einstein to work out the CSLs Nurburgring time was helped a lot by the tyres especially if they generated "1.6G" ?

Sadly with all that weight to carry round, they're still not that fast until you gut them, put APs on and proper suspension. It isn't JUST the tyres - the CSL has different traction control system with an M track mode on steering wheel (much like the M-sport button on the new E9X series), different ABS control program (to compensate for the extra grip from the tyres), shorter steering ratio 14.5:1 (compared with 15.4:1 on M3), different suspension and springs (Sachs, shorter spring and different damping and rebound rates), different rear lower arm - aluminium with spherical joint, different front king pin (hub) for wider front track, larger and lighter (hollow) front ARB, larger rear ARB, so many changes that make a significant difference to the way the CSL handles compared to a standard M3.

Here is a video of a me catching and passing normal M3 with Cups (on CSL wheels) at Snetterton, you can see the speed difference by the fact that he is nowhere in sight at the beginning of the video. If you don't want to watch it all, fast forward to around 7 mins.

Also at the end you will see me wait for my mate's stripped out E92, which is on 285 Cups all round, KW V3 Clubsports, APs and weighs only 1460kg. It is a DCT car as well, so is a proper weapon (I struggle LOL). Only lasts for 1 lap, as he runs low on fuel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2V6qpP-r6AU

Oh and the Caterham at the beginning is my mates 620R - it's mentally quick as you can see how it pulls away on every straight.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the normal M3 is a terrible car, but it's remit is so far removed from the CSL that it takes quite a lot of money to get a credible comparison. There is someone on the CSL forum who has an Estoril blue E46 M3 with EVERY single genuine CSL part on the car to make a manual CSL (and due to the fact it doesn't have to have the SMG pump etc, it is actually 20kg lighter than his CSL).

Edited by Mike Rainbird on Wednesday 8th July 13:55

Edited by Mike Rainbird on Wednesday 8th July 14:10

Edited by Mike Rainbird on Wednesday 8th July 14:26

[cerb4.5lee]

Mike Rainbird said:

Also at the end you will see me wait for my mate's stripped out E92, which is on 285 Cups all round, KW V3 Clubsports, APs and weighs only 1460kg. It is a DCT car as well, so is a proper weapon (I struggle LOL). Only lasts for 1 lap, as he runs low on fuel.

Enjoyed watching that

The pesky E92 M3 showing its annoying side I see...terrible thirst and poor range!

[jmcc42uk]

The point I was trying to make was that a well sorted CS or standard m3 is not MILES away from a CSL on track or anywhere else.
I think you said that the standard car 'would not know which way the CSL went'

All I'm saying is that when you loose 100kgs and remap a standard car with an airbox, it's going to be very close to a CSL in terms of pace.

Also to correct a few things.....I was assuming that you would know that I'm not sitting on the floor. With Recaro SPG in there will Macht Schnell alloy mounts the saving is 42kgs.

Standard battery - 21kgs vs Odyssey PC680 - 7kgs

Exhaust and cats will produce a 25kg saving.

Theres 80kgs, with a few other small bits you've dropped 100kgs WITHOUT being stripped out or loosing any creature comforts.

[161BMW]

Mike Rainbird said:

161BMW said:

I would like to see what a standard M3 with Cups can do around the ring

You don't have to be Einstein to work out the CSLs Nurburgring time was helped a lot by the tyres especially if they generated "1.6G" ?

Sadly with all that weight to carry round, they're still not that fast until you gut them, put APs on and proper suspension. It isn't JUST the tyres - the CSL has different traction control system with an M track mode on steering wheel (much like the M-sport button on the new E9X series), different ABS control program (to compensate for the extra grip from the tyres), shorter steering ratio 14.5:1 (compared with 15.4:1 on M3), different suspension and springs (Sachs, shorter spring and different damping and rebound rates), different rear lower arm - aluminium with spherical joint, different front king pin (hub) for wider front track, larger and lighter (hollow) front ARB, larger rear ARB, so many changes that make a significant difference to the way the CSL handles compared to a standard M3.

Here is a video of a me catching and passing normal M3 with Cups (on CSL wheels) at Snetterton, you can see the speed difference by the fact that he is nowhere in sight at the beginning of the video. If you don't want to watch it all, fast forward to around 7 mins.

Also at the end you will see me wait for my mate's stripped out E92, which is on 285 Cups all round, KW V3 Clubsports, APs and weighs only 1460kg. It is a DCT car as well, so is a proper weapon (I struggle LOL). Only lasts for 1 lap, as he runs low on fuel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2V6qpP-r6AU

Oh and the Caterham at the beginning is my mates 620R - it's mentally quick as you can see how it pulls away on every straight.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the normal M3 is a terrible car, but it's remit is so far removed from the CSL that it takes quite a lot of money to get a credible comparison. There is someone on the CSL forum who has an Estoril blue E46 M3 with EVERY single genuine CSL part on the car to make a manual CSL (and due to the fact it doesn't have to have the SMG pump etc, it is actually 20kg lighter than his CSL).

Edited by Mike Rainbird on Wednesday 8th July 13:55

Edited by Mike Rainbird on Wednesday 8th July 14:10

Of course CSL + Cups is quicker than standard E46 M3 + Cups
That is obvious
Tyres I think make a massive difference as all that mechanical grip is generated from the tyres. So a lot of the official 7:50 or whatever of the CSL v 8:20 or whatever it was of E46 M3 I would bet half of that difference is due to the tyres (I take a punt on that)

As for you being quicker than E46 M3 + cups could be due to driver as well as the car

I am talking of standard M3 + Cups v standard CSL + Cups

Forget all the modding stuff

Edited by Mike Rainbird on Wednesday 8th July 14:26

[Mike Rainbird]

jmcc42uk said:

The point I was trying to make was that a well sorted CS or standard m3 is not MILES away from a CSL on track or anywhere else.
I think you said that the standard car 'would not know which way the CSL went'

All I'm saying is that when you loose 100kgs and remap a standard car with an airbox, it's going to be very close to a CSL in terms of pace.

Also to correct a few things.....I was assuming that you would know that I'm not sitting on the floor. With Recaro SPG in there will Macht Schnell alloy mounts the saving is 42kgs.

Standard battery - 21kgs vs Odyssey PC680 - 7kgs

Exhaust and cats will produce a 25kg saving.

Theres 80kgs, with a few other small bits you've dropped 100kgs WITHOUT being stripped out or loosing any creature comforts.

I am confused as to why (even when presented with the evidence of the reviews, you still insist that a STANDARD M3 is NOT miles away from a CSL on the track). I have even shown you video evidence of one equipped with Cups that is overtaken like it is not a problem. I can do the same with a video of doing the same to stock M3s at the 'ring if it will help ?

The 42kg you are now talking about saving from the seat change is somewhat off you initial suggestion of 80-90kg .

And as to creature comforts - how do you propose gaining access to the rear seats with those alloy mounts .

Like I said, you CAN turn a normal M3 / CS into something that will compete with a CSL, but you have to be prepared to spend a LOT of money AND make compromises with practicality.

A CSL owner just has to fit a Supersprint and make the same 25kg exhaust weight savings and then they have again moved the goal-posts for you to aim for (as well as retaining the practicality of being able to carry 4 adults in comfort) .

However, if you're not worried about matching the CSL's practicality as well, then obviously the potential is there to turn the CS into a proper weapon. If you're not afraid to PROPERLY gut it, I could get your CS down to 1250kg (where you wouldn't need any more power from cams or carbon airbox). You then fit APs, KW Clubsport suspension, Cups, 3.9 CWP, Powerflex bushes, rear camber arms and a few other bits and bobs and you have something that will beat / match most things this side of 997 GT3 performance (including a CSL). The platform really is THAT good, but you need to throw £10-15k at one to do it properly.

Edited by Mike Rainbird on Wednesday 8th July 15:27

[billyboysm3]

I have a E46 M3 and a CSL. I took the M3 (non CSL) to bedford on cups and it was sh*t to drive compared to the CSL.

So to give the lardy M3 a chance, totally stripped it, bucket seats and harnesses then off to Bedford again. Better but still miles off.

Since that day the lardy M3 now has:
4.1 diff, aero, solid bushes, H&R anti roll bars, AP's, Intrax, decent Geo. square set up on slicks, aircon removed.

To get to the point very quickly the CSL's edge is its cornering, I can corner pretty much the same as the track car if both are on cups, the track car has the edge on slicks.

Everyone I know that owns a CSL and has a M3 track car will tell you that you have to spend the ££££ to get anywhere near the standard cars balance at high speed bends. And thats why the spending continues as want the grip and turn in the CSL offers.

You just cannot stick some cups on it as the lardy M3 just really isnt as good, forget the airbox its the handling that can make a crap driver look good.

The CSL is special, drive it near its limit and it comes alive.

Im off for a blat now