RE: The £70K M3 CSL: Spotted

[skillimz]

I bought a 997 (08) the other day to tick another car of my bucket list before retirement.
I owned a csl back in the day and an smg cs but wished I kept hold of the csl for the rising residuals.
If I'm being honest, i was trying to find a manual cs before I bought the porker because in my mind the only thing my old CSL was missing was the manual gearbox.
Dct is the new kid on the block and it makes the smg feel like old boots.
Perhaps next year I might give the manual CS a try if there are any left!

[DasChin]

Mike Rainbird said:

I am a proper Porsche fan, but the 996 GT3 (despite it's power AND weight advantage) is slower around the 'ring than the CSL. It wasn't until the RS model was released that Porsche were able to beat the CSLs time (and only then by a couple of seconds). Now given that the RS models were supposed to make close to 400bhp (my mate's one dynoed even fractionally more), it goes to show how well balanced the CSL's chassis is that despite being over 40bhp down and 40kg heavier, it is so close.

The corner speed (able to generate 1.6g!) of the CSL is just otherworldly and has to be experienced to be believed.

all very true Mike and confirmed here:
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife.html

to be fair the CSL was on cups and the mk2 GT3 was on road tyres. hence the 4 second gap to the CSL:

69. Porsche 911 GT3 RS 7:43.00 160 '03 381 / 1360 Walter Röhrl

88. BMW M3 CSL 7:50.00 158 '03 360 / 1385 Horst von Saurma

101. Porsche 911 GT3 7:54.00 156 '03 380 / 1380

the 996 GT3RS time was also set on pilot sport 2s (and not Cups/Pzero Corsas) so it would be another 10 seconds away as that is what semi slicks are worth over 20kms!

laps in those days were done on cars which came out of factory at base spec. PCCBs (Carbon brakes) and semi slicks were options on the porsches back then. seem to be standard fair these days (Cup 2s)

and what makes the CSL the more remarkable is that out of the factory they NEVER made 360 bhp! have seen 345s on dynos but that's about it. Porsche tend to under call their figures or be on the money so the RS was always pushing 400 BHP.

Edited by DasChin on Wednesday 8th July 15:50

[skillimz]

yonex said:

I wonder how many people obsessed with weight include the driver

Besides, the SMG kills it totally for me. Not interested in a sequential shift, especially an early one which everyone slated even when it was launched.

The CSL is and always will be a fantastic machine but the gearbox is not for everyone.

A CSL with an implanted DCT (if possible) or manual gearbox would be perfect.

Thats why many ex CSL owners sometimes downgrade to the manual CS or even get a manual porker.

[Zod]

skillimz said:

yonex said:

I wonder how many people obsessed with weight include the driver

Besides, the SMG kills it totally for me. Not interested in a sequential shift, especially an early one which everyone slated even when it was launched.

The CSL is and always will be a fantastic machine but the gearbox is not for everyone.

A CSL with an implanted DCT (if possible) or manual gearbox would be perfect.

Thats why many ex CSL owners sometimes downgrade to the manual CS or even get a manual porker.

I always thought SMG was fine, but I prefer a manual box, hence my choice of car now.

[Mike Rainbird]

DasChin said:

all very true Mike and confirmed here:
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife.html

to be fair the CSL was on cups and the mk2 GT3 was on road tyres. hence the 4 second gap to the CSL:

69. Porsche 911 GT3 RS 7:43.00 160 '03 381 / 1360 Walter Röhrl

88. BMW M3 CSL 7:50.00 158 '03 360 / 1385 Horst von Saurma

101. Porsche 911 GT3 7:54.00 156 '03 380 / 1380

the 996 GT3RS time was also set on pilot sport 2s (and not Cups/Pzero Corsas) so it would be another 10 seconds away as that is what semi slicks are worth over 20kms!

laps in those days were done on cars which came out of factory at base spec. PCCBs (Carbon brakes) and semi slicks were options on the porsches back then. seem to be standard fair these days (Cup 2s)

and what makes the CSL the more remarkable is that out of the factory they NEVER made 360 bhp! have seen 345s on dynos but that's about it. Porsche tend to under call their figures or be on the money so the RS was always pushing 400 BHP.

Edited by DasChin on Wednesday 8th July 15:50

BMW never claimed they made 360bhp . It's 360PS, which is 355BHP . Same with the M3 - 343PS, which is 338bhp . Even the normal M3s usually fall short of their claimed outputs as well.

I think I will stick mine on the rollers to see what it really has .

[GregorFuk]

I was a die hard manual type of guy but I honestly can't imagine the CSL with a manual shift. The SMG makes the car. It's not the best around town but at 9 or 10 10ths it is great.

I honestly can't think of another light weight special that people are so quick to poo poo.

If someone came on these forums and suggested that a DIY stripped out Ferrari 360 was on par with a 360 CS he'd be booed off the stage. Same goes for the 997 and 997 GT3. The differences between these cars are equally incremental yet nobody questions the GT3 or CS' greatness. The CSL? Well that just an M3 with a fancy roof. Go figure!? There's no point trying to make sense or this place.

[Mike Rainbird]

GregorFuk said:

I was a die hard manual type of guy but I honestly can't imagine the CSL with a manual shift. The SMG makes the car. It's not the best around town but at 9 or 10 10ths it is great.

I honestly can't think of another light weight special that people are so quick to poo poo.

If someone came on these forums and suggested that a DIY stripped out Ferrari 360 was on par with a 360 CS he'd be booed off the stage. Same goes for the 997 and 997 GT3. The differences between these cars are equally incremental yet nobody questions the GT3 or CS' greatness. The CSL? Well that just an M3 with a fancy roof. Go figure!? There's no point trying to make sense or this place.

What is even more amazing is that the Challenge Stradale is supposed to put out 400bhp, weigh 1150kg and even runs the same Cup tyres as the CSL, yet it is 6 seconds slower round the 'ring with the exact same driver at the wheel - go figure LOL ! Yet, no-one quibbles its £100k plus premium over the cooking 360.... .

Edited by Mike Rainbird on Wednesday 8th July 16:11

[jmcc42uk]

Mike Rainbird said:

I am confused as to why (even when presented with the evidence of the reviews, you still insist that a STANDARD M3 is NOT miles away from a CSL on the track). I have even shown you video evidence of one equipped with Cups that is overtaken like it is not a problem. I can do the same with a video of doing the same to stock M3s at the 'ring if it will help ?

The 42kg you are now talking about saving from the seat change is somewhat off you initial suggestion of 80-90kg .

And as to creature comforts - how do you propose gaining access to the rear seats with those alloy mounts .

Like I said, you CAN turn a normal M3 / CS into something that will compete with a CSL, but you have to be prepared to spend a LOT of money AND make compromises with practicality.

A CSL owner just has to fit a Supersprint and make the same 25kg exhaust weight savings and then they have again moved the goal-posts for you to aim for (as well as retaining the practicality of being able to carry 4 adults in comfort) .

However, if you're not worried about matching the CSL's practicality as well, then obviously the potential is there to turn the CS into a proper weapon. If you're not afraid to PROPERLY gut it, I could get your CS down to 1250kg (where you wouldn't need any more power from cams or carbon airbox). You then fit APs, KW Clubsport suspension, Cups, 3.9 CWP, Powerflex bushes, rear camber arms and a few other bits and bobs and you have something that will beat / match most things this side of 997 GT3 performance (including a CSL). The platform really is THAT good, but you need to throw £10-15k at one to do it properly.

Edited by Mike Rainbird on Wednesday 8th July 15:27

If you read my first post you'll see that I did not say you could loose 80-90kgs from seats.

I'm fully aware of all that you have said and agree with most of it, but for me, the £50-60k+ price tag for a very nice CSL does not stack up when you consider the relatively small difference in performance. The correlation between price vs performance is strongly in the std cars favour.

Also, I just prefer a manual gearbox....when you get the heel/toe action just right, stirring the stick is a heavenly experience.

Plus, my CS is Imola Red, which for me is the best colour out there.

[Leins]

jmcc42uk said:

If you read my first post you'll see that I did not say you could loose 80-90kgs from seats.

I'm fully aware of all that you have said and agree with most of it, but for me, the £50-60k+ price tag for a very nice CSL does not stack up when you consider the relatively small difference in performance. The correlation between price vs performance is strongly in the std cars favour.

Also, I just prefer a manual gearbox....when you get the heel/toe action just right, stirring the stick is a heavenly experience.

Plus, my CS is Imola Red, which for me is the best colour out there.

Quick question, how did you find the CSL in comparison to your CS when you drove it? I'm interested because I myself have never driven a CS, only std M3s

Did you really find the SMG get in the way of your enjoyment of the car? Where would you value a CSL as a factor of the CS in terms of what you found it offered/missed in comparison?

[Mike Rainbird]

jmcc42uk said:

If you read my first post you'll see that I did not say you could loose 80-90kgs from seats.

I'm fully aware of all that you have said and agree with most of it, but for me, the £50-60k+ price tag for a very nice CSL does not stack up when you consider the relatively small difference in performance. The correlation between price vs performance is strongly in the std cars favour.

Also, I just prefer a manual gearbox....when you get the heel/toe action just right, stirring the stick is a heavenly experience.

Plus, my CS is Imola Red, which for me is the best colour out there.

I would hazard a guess from your posts that you have never been on track with your CS, so would naturally feel the difference in the performance figures doesn't stack up to justify the price difference. Drive the cars at 10/10ths and I feel sure your feelings would change.

However, on the road at normal road speeds, nothing about the CSL makes any sense. In fact, unless you're driving it at more than 8/10ths, it doesn't even come alive and feels like you're walking around with a greyhound on a leash, when you could gain just as much enjoyment by walking a Labrador. Only when you take the dogs off the leash (put the cars on track) can you truly appreciate the speed differences.

On the road, I would also concur that a manual gearbox is far more enjoyable, but again I would point out that like walking a greyhound on a leash, that is NOT what the CSL was built for....

And Imola Red is certainly a nice colour, but Silver Grey cars are faster .

[estoril]

Mike Rainbird said:

And Imola Red is certainly a nice colour, but Silver Grey cars are faster .

knew it had to come out eventually..but it is a fact of course...

[jmcc42uk]

I have never driven a CSL. I have driven several SMG's and do not get on that well with them. They do get easier to live with once you learn to use them but I still prefer a manual box.

I've not been on track with my CS as I only got it a few weeks ago, I had a std m3 before that which was stripped out.

My point still remains though that £70k for a CSL is a lot of money when you consider that a good standard m3 can be had for £10k. Surely you're not going to tell me that the CSL is a £60k better car?

[Chapppers]

Objectively no. Perhaps this is an anomaly, perhaps not. A £35k CSL worth £40k next year, £45k the next is definitely a better PURCHASE than a £10k M3 that may be worth who knows what £8-12k? in three years time.

People are confusing price with value with cost with all sorts.

All I know is my CSL is the best car I've ever driven round a track, and it wasn't even on Cup tyres at the time.

[161BMW]

Mike Rainbird said:

jmcc42uk said:

If you read my first post you'll see that I did not say you could loose 80-90kgs from seats.

I'm fully aware of all that you have said and agree with most of it, but for me, the £50-60k+ price tag for a very nice CSL does not stack up when you consider the relatively small difference in performance. The correlation between price vs performance is strongly in the std cars favour.

Also, I just prefer a manual gearbox....when you get the heel/toe action just right, stirring the stick is a heavenly experience.

Plus, my CS is Imola Red, which for me is the best colour out there.

I would hazard a guess from your posts that you have never been on track with your CS, so would naturally feel the difference in the performance figures doesn't stack up to justify the price difference. Drive the cars at 10/10ths and I feel sure your feelings would change.

However, on the road at normal road speeds, nothing about the CSL makes any sense. In fact, unless you're driving it at more than 8/10ths, it doesn't even come alive and feels like you're walking around with a greyhound on a leash, when you could gain just as much enjoyment by walking a Labrador. Only when you take the dogs off the leash (put the cars on track) can you truly appreciate the speed differences.

On the road, I would also concur that a manual gearbox is far more enjoyable, but again I would point out that like walking a greyhound on a leash, that is NOT what the CSL was built for....

And Imola Red is certainly a nice colour, but Silver Grey cars are faster .

So back in the real world ie roads I take it there is not much difference between standard M3 and CSL ?

I was looking at some stats from BMW
0-100kmh
E46 M3 5.2
CSL 4.8
E92 M3 4.7

0-1000m
E46 M3 24.2
CSL 23.5
E92 M3 23.3

So unless u r a track day driver and risk Binning it / cracking the boot floor where presumably the track is the only place performance really shines

Do agree lightweight limited run specials tend I be worth more
From performance v price perspective of course not
For the kudos yes
For the possible appreciation yes

Obviously this CSL is top end. If u want the CSL but don't want to pay £70k which can get you Aston Martin V12 Vantag Manual then SH CSL £28-40k is an alternative

[161BMW]

DasChin said:

Mike Rainbird said:

I am a proper Porsche fan, but the 996 GT3 (despite it's power AND weight advantage) is slower around the 'ring than the CSL. It wasn't until the RS model was released that Porsche were able to beat the CSLs time (and only then by a couple of seconds). Now given that the RS models were supposed to make close to 400bhp (my mate's one dynoed even fractionally more), it goes to show how well balanced the CSL's chassis is that despite being over 40bhp down and 40kg heavier, it is so close.

The corner speed (able to generate 1.6g!) of the CSL is just otherworldly and has to be experienced to be believed.

all very true Mike and confirmed here:
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife.html

to be fair the CSL was on cups and the mk2 GT3 was on road tyres. hence the 4 second gap to the CSL:

69. Porsche 911 GT3 RS 7:43.00 160 '03 381 / 1360 Walter Röhrl

88. BMW M3 CSL 7:50.00 158 '03 360 / 1385 Horst von Saurma

101. Porsche 911 GT3 7:54.00 156 '03 380 / 1380

the 996 GT3RS time was also set on pilot sport 2s (and not Cups/Pzero Corsas) so it would be another 10 seconds away as that is what semi slicks are worth over 20kms!

laps in those days were done on cars which came out of factory at base spec. PCCBs (Carbon brakes) and semi slicks were options on the porsches back then. seem to be standard fair these days (Cup 2s)

and what makes the CSL the more remarkable is that out of the factory they NEVER made 360 bhp! have seen 345s on dynos but that's about it. Porsche tend to under call their figures or be on the money so the RS was always pushing 400 BHP.

Edited by DasChin on Wednesday 8th July 15:50

So looking at the website so a Ferrari F430 laps in same time as Porsche Cayman S / BMW M5 ????

[DasChin]

Ferraris and the ring have NEVER mixed that well.

Ferrari use Fiorano which is super smooth for testing and set up. the ring is not! its bumpy, has nasty cambers, different tarmac, undulations and hills.

hence why they don't mix too well as they were never really set up from the factory to go round there. watching a fezza go through the Karussell is painful.

I agree the SMG2 makes the CSL...especially when pressing on and on track. its just sublime in level 6 with Mtrack mode on.

Porsche and BMW use the Nordschleife all the time as its more related to the road and changing conditions.

Edited by DasChin on Wednesday 8th July 17:19

[estoril]

Let's not forget that the one in question is not yet sold, £70K is the asking price, also, it is not a typical CSL in that it is one of the few that were UK bound with no options specified, more typical prices are £35-£45K

[Lefty]

There's a slightly tatty 90k mile CSL on eBay for £30k just now. That's more like it.

[darreni]

jmcc42uk said:

I have never driven a CSL. I have driven several SMG's and do not get on that well with them. They do get easier to live with once you learn to use them but I still prefer a manual box.

I've not been on track with my CS as I only got it a few weeks ago, I had a std m3 before that which was stripped out.

My point still remains though that £70k for a CSL is a lot of money when you consider that a good standard m3 can be had for £10k. Surely you're not going to tell me that the CSL is a £60k better car?


If a CSL is what you really want, then it's totally worth the extra, just like a Rolex etc is worth the extra over a Casio if that floats yer boat.

It seems to me that those that have never had one ( or just read about them on the net) don't get it.

Those that have, do.

[e21Mark]

Lefty said:

There's a slightly tatty 90k mile CSL on eBay for £30k just now. That's more like it.

I imagine it won't hang around for long.

BMW has a long history of building special models and the CSL is a prime example. That said, it seems less and less likely they will do so again, so it's small wonder that demand has pushed up values.

E46 M3 are great cars, but the CSL is a great car and then some. It appears that they get under owner skins much like the E30 M3.