RE: The £70K M3 CSL: Spotted
Discussion
rodericb said:
And the Z8!
I think that boat sailed along time ago, just ask Hexagon 
Atmospheric said:
Especially the CS. That will rocket next.
The CS is only an option rather than a model. You don't get a badge. Whilst people think they are worth loads more compared to the standard car, the only part really worth having is the CSL steering rack. Oh and you lose all the multifunction wheel buttons in favour of an M button.I guess you could say it is more special than the CSL in a way. There are less of them, You cannot get Interlagos Blue another way apart from a respray.
ac427 said:
[The CS is only an option rather than a model. You don't get a badge. Whilst people think they are worth loads more compared to the standard car, the only part really worth having is the CSL steering rack. Oh and you lose all the multifunction wheel buttons in favour of an M button.
I guess you could say it is more special than the CSL in a way. There are less of them, You cannot get Interlagos Blue another way apart from a respray.
Plus the CS gets bigger brakes, CS wheels, CSL exhaust manifolds, alcantara here and there. I guess you could say it is more special than the CSL in a way. There are less of them, You cannot get Interlagos Blue another way apart from a respray.
Having owned both normal M3 and a CS, the CS is so much better to drive. Couldn't have a normal M3 again after a CS.
MattOz said:
Plus the CS gets bigger brakes, CS wheels, CSL exhaust manifolds, alcantara here and there.
Having owned both normal M3 and a CS, the CS is so much better to drive. Couldn't have a normal M3 again after a CS.
True, Slightly bigger discs and calipers spaced further out i agree are better than standard like the CSL.Having owned both normal M3 and a CS, the CS is so much better to drive. Couldn't have a normal M3 again after a CS.
The CSL exhaust manifolds offer no performance gain only a saving in weight of next to nothing. They were fitted to all standard M3's after 05 anyway.
The CS Wheels can be purchased but most people just buy CSL wheels instead.
The CS is not lighter than a standard M3.
My point is you can exceed the CS option spec on a standard car. CSL Steering rack, AP brakes and your done.
If CS prices go stratopheric you'll be able to exceed the spec for less.
the same old posted time & time again
1973 Porsche Carrera RS .. £600K + , or you could take a 1973 2.4T and build an exact replica for probabally £100k .... they might drive the same and the replica might even drive better, but it's still a replica . Nothing wrong with a replica , but a large amount of people who have the cash don't want a replica or someting that drives similar, they want an original.
This is the same with the CSL. Out of the box its a cracking car and there is more to it than just a bit of weight saving here & there. Of course you can modify a standard M3 to lap quicker, accl quicker or even replicate a CSL etc etc ... point being a lot of people want the original and what it represents
1973 Porsche Carrera RS .. £600K + , or you could take a 1973 2.4T and build an exact replica for probabally £100k .... they might drive the same and the replica might even drive better, but it's still a replica . Nothing wrong with a replica , but a large amount of people who have the cash don't want a replica or someting that drives similar, they want an original.
This is the same with the CSL. Out of the box its a cracking car and there is more to it than just a bit of weight saving here & there. Of course you can modify a standard M3 to lap quicker, accl quicker or even replicate a CSL etc etc ... point being a lot of people want the original and what it represents
It was only just now that I as browsing Autotrader, as you do, and I came across a 700k 599 GTO and a 650k Carrera GT (both at well known dealers). Makes me wonder how long prices such as these will actually stay up there, surely buyers must realise they're paying, for example, 50% more than they could've paid 3 years ago for the same car. Will be an interesting one to watch for sure!
hot66 said:
the same old posted time & time again
1973 Porsche Carrera RS .. £600K + , or you could take a 1973 2.4T and build an exact replica for probabally £100k .... they might drive the same and the replica might even drive better, but it's still a replica . Nothing wrong with a replica , but a large amount of people who have the cash don't want a replica or someting that drives similar, they want an original.
This is the same with the CSL. Out of the box its a cracking car and there is more to it than just a bit of weight saving here & there. Of course you can modify a standard M3 to lap quicker, accl quicker or even replicate a CSL etc etc ... point being a lot of people want the original and what it represents
Yes and new cars prices are mad also. Porsche 991 GT3 are unobtainable or at least 50K over list. The RS, same story.1973 Porsche Carrera RS .. £600K + , or you could take a 1973 2.4T and build an exact replica for probabally £100k .... they might drive the same and the replica might even drive better, but it's still a replica . Nothing wrong with a replica , but a large amount of people who have the cash don't want a replica or someting that drives similar, they want an original.
This is the same with the CSL. Out of the box its a cracking car and there is more to it than just a bit of weight saving here & there. Of course you can modify a standard M3 to lap quicker, accl quicker or even replicate a CSL etc etc ... point being a lot of people want the original and what it represents
I think it it a year or so ago when Porsche just decided to put 20k on 991 911 prices, that aluminium must be rare in Germany.
Now a bottom of the range Carrera instead of 60k is 80k+ well 73k but you need 10k of options always.
It is a special car no doubt and one the likes of which we may not see again. A lot of the modifications go deeper than some people think and can't easily be replicated on a standard M3, however 4x more special then what is already a very decent car, no way.
They were a good buy at £30-£35k but once they went above £50k is when they stopped being enthusiasts cars and fell into the hands of la-la land collectors. Any car which reaches this point immediately looses it's appeal for me I'm afraid.
They were a good buy at £30-£35k but once they went above £50k is when they stopped being enthusiasts cars and fell into the hands of la-la land collectors. Any car which reaches this point immediately looses it's appeal for me I'm afraid.
It's really simple. It's a different market entirely. This car will move into the world of collections, where (in order to maintain its' value) it'll cover very few miles ever again, if any at all. The people that'll look at it and seriously consider buying it won't be thinking about driving it, they'll be thinking about how it may continue to appreciate in value over time, in the eyes of other people like them.
There may be a few people like that on Pistonheads but I'd wager the vast majority are people who'd want to actually drive it when they so choose, even those fortunate enough to own a number of cars already. This car is not priced according to that market so it almost certainly won't be purchased by someone in it.
If you want a car of this spec to actually drive then you're unlikely to want to make any serious money on it over time, so far more sensible to buy one that does have a few options (aircon, xenon lamps etc.) and delete those yourself.
There may be a few people like that on Pistonheads but I'd wager the vast majority are people who'd want to actually drive it when they so choose, even those fortunate enough to own a number of cars already. This car is not priced according to that market so it almost certainly won't be purchased by someone in it.
If you want a car of this spec to actually drive then you're unlikely to want to make any serious money on it over time, so far more sensible to buy one that does have a few options (aircon, xenon lamps etc.) and delete those yourself.
E
The point is thought hat many people buying these cars are investors, so they are the ones propping up or causing prices to rise, artificially so in most cases.
If banks start offering decent interest again, investors could conceivably liquidate their asset/car, and if there is a sudden flood (ok, relative terms for a limited edition of a car) of such cats, the bubble will burst.
At that point there will be some people left without a chair when the music stops.
Personally I feel that prices are artificially high, and maintained by people like Hexagon and 4Star Classics, who seem to look at the current dealer price and add 20-25%,
The inflated prices are true across the market, Ferrari Dinis being 'worth' £250k, Daytonas being 'worth' £750k etc; I'll sit back thank you and wait for the prices to drop again (anyone remember basket case E-Types suddenly going from £10k to -£25k+ in the '80's, then falling back again.
The market climbs, then falls, as sure as night follows day...
cat with a hat said:
This is just silly.
Small group deluded people propping up the prices of classics and exotica.
If the mill/billionaires stop buying then the market will suddenly turn on its head and it will be a race down to sensible prices.
Exactly what I've been saying for a while.Small group deluded people propping up the prices of classics and exotica.
If the mill/billionaires stop buying then the market will suddenly turn on its head and it will be a race down to sensible prices.
The point is thought hat many people buying these cars are investors, so they are the ones propping up or causing prices to rise, artificially so in most cases.
If banks start offering decent interest again, investors could conceivably liquidate their asset/car, and if there is a sudden flood (ok, relative terms for a limited edition of a car) of such cats, the bubble will burst.
At that point there will be some people left without a chair when the music stops.
Personally I feel that prices are artificially high, and maintained by people like Hexagon and 4Star Classics, who seem to look at the current dealer price and add 20-25%,
The inflated prices are true across the market, Ferrari Dinis being 'worth' £250k, Daytonas being 'worth' £750k etc; I'll sit back thank you and wait for the prices to drop again (anyone remember basket case E-Types suddenly going from £10k to -£25k+ in the '80's, then falling back again.
The market climbs, then falls, as sure as night follows day...
tim milne said:
Odd that it still has the rear seats. You'd think that either BMW or the original owner, if either were that purist about it, would've taken the rear seats out. There's probably another 35kg to be saved.
Clearly you've not sat in the back of a CSL. The rear bench and back rests are flimsy to say the least.People seem to forget the lack of sound deadening, the thinner rear glass. The aluminium control arms. The different hub carriers and suspension setup. There's lots of differences between the M3 and CSL that all add up to make it a very different car. Adding a bumper and a boot lid does not bring you anywhere close.
Guvernator said:
Interesting as the CSL was almost universally panned when it first came out, everything from it's too expensive to crappy gearbox, even the "cardboard boot floor" was mocked and now look.
I think "they don't make them like they used to" is definitely a factor but so is the huge turn around by journalists who seem to like nothing more than crowing this "fact" from the rooftops. Countless articles in Evo et all are IMO one of the biggest factors in the rising price bubble of enthusiast cars from this era and it looks like PH are happy to jump on the bandwagon in pushing those prices up even further
All the reviews I read heaped nothing but praise on the car, with Clarkson even famously coining the phrase "BMW at its best". The only criticisms I can recall was the price difference (but that was nothing to do with driving dynamics) and also that the steering was down on some feel (which I believe is attributable to the stiffer sidewalls of the Cups, as subsequent later reviews with the Pilot Super-sports on don't seem to mention any lack of steering feel, but instead praise the speed of the rack). I think "they don't make them like they used to" is definitely a factor but so is the huge turn around by journalists who seem to like nothing more than crowing this "fact" from the rooftops. Countless articles in Evo et all are IMO one of the biggest factors in the rising price bubble of enthusiast cars from this era and it looks like PH are happy to jump on the bandwagon in pushing those prices up even further
Obviously even back then some people bemoaned the fact that it didn't come with a manual option (but they still do that now with the 991 GT3, and no-one would say that still isn't a great driver's car). The SMG can be a bit boring on the road in every day give-and-take driving (where having a clutch peddle and gear lever to manipulate allows you get some enjoyment from stirring the gearbox and rev-matching), but that was never BMW's remit - even in the supplementary manual that came with the car, it talks about "when driving it on track" and this is where the car comes alive, as it is really the only place you can explore the monumental grip of the tyres without getting locked up anyway. Don't forget that despite subsequent BMW models having far more power, the CSL still remained the fastest car that BMW buit around the Nordschleife, until the introduction of the other limited edition model (the E92 M3 GTS @ 7:48), and that was twice the money of the CSL and was only 2s faster..... This goes to show just how good the CSL is and is one of the few cars that seems to punch well above it's weight and perform better than the sum of it's parts.
As to the cardboard floor, that is a myth started by Gezzer. The floor in the CSL is the same as in every E46 M3, it just has a fibre-board cover over the tool-kit and electric compressor - but then so do quite a lot of cars (even my old Sierra Cosworth had a fibre-board cover over the spare wheel).
To those wondering if the CSL and standard M3 are truly that much different, just drive them back to back and you wouldn't even recognise them as the same car if you closed your eyes (not to be recommended while you are driving
). A standard M3 feels like a barge by comparison and getting back into the CSL feels like you're in a go-kart that can be chucked around, where the M3 feels like the wing mirrors are going to scrape on the ground by comparison .Don't get me wrong, a normal M3 can be made into a PROPER weapon, but it is obviously compromised far more as BMWs target audience for this model was a much more diverse range of people, where the CSL is a far more focused proposition that was built to show-off BMW's motorsport pedigree and all their material technologies. Don't forget this was 2003, so carbon fibre roof and the SMG box were considered to be cutting edge LOL. Also don't forget it wasn't until the introduction of the GT3 RS that even Porsche couldn't build a faster lapping car of the 'ring
. Even the 400bhp / 1150kg Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale is 6 seconds slower - the CSL is truly remarkable.Many of you will say that the 'ring lap times aren't relevant - but considering this is what BMW built the car to achieve in the first place, it has to be mentioned just how fast it is in comparison to much more expensive machinery and IMO is why it deserves its place in history.
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