RE: The £70K M3 CSL: Spotted

RE: The £70K M3 CSL: Spotted

Author
Discussion

Axionknight

8,505 posts

134 months

Tuesday 7th July 2015
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I do like 'em and there is no doubting their ability, but I'd rather have a 1M, personally.

e21Mark

16,205 posts

172 months

Tuesday 7th July 2015
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yonex said:
jmcc42uk said:
Prices of good CS manuals are already £20k plus....and rising. Stick on a carbon airbox and you have the perfect e46 M3
This. The CS is rarer and has a proper gearbox.
I know the gearbox can be a bit dim around town but it seemed to come into its own on track. (I say that as a passenger though, not a driver)

Personally, I think they're great cars although way out of my budget.

Yanto

543 posts

207 months

Tuesday 7th July 2015
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cerb4.5lee said:
moktabe said:
Too many seem to have an informed opinion on the CSL yet, in reality, not many posting have actually ever seen one let alone either driven or had a passenger ride.
Welcome to pistonheads smile I am sure its a great machine to drive and it could go around the ring in two minutes for me but it can never hide the fact the its still only a 3 series and is based on a boring standard car in the first place.

I prefer something that is designed from the ground up as a sports car or track car rather than something tarted up...in fairness though with the money they fetch it certainly doesn't seem to bother the ones that own/buy them.
clap uninformed at its best

Mermaid

21,492 posts

170 months

Tuesday 7th July 2015
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Yanto said:
Rarer = better ?
Different
Horses for courses, ideally own the CS (daily driver that is not losing money) & the CSL (special events, track events & as an "investment")

Yanto

543 posts

207 months

Tuesday 7th July 2015
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Terminator X said:
Go on then, tell us!

TX.
Shhhhh....don't tell him Pike smile

NicoG

640 posts

207 months

Tuesday 7th July 2015
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Mike Rainbird said:
All the reviews I read heaped nothing but praise on the car, with Clarkson even famously coining the phrase "BMW at its best". The only criticisms I can recall was the price difference (but that was nothing to do with driving dynamics) and also that the steering was down on some feel (which I believe is attributable to the stiffer sidewalls of the Cups, as subsequent later reviews with the Pilot Super-sports on don't seem to mention any lack of steering feel, but instead praise the speed of the rack).

Obviously even back then some people bemoaned the fact that it didn't come with a manual option (but they still do that now with the 991 GT3, and no-one would say that still isn't a great driver's car). The SMG can be a bit boring on the road in every day give-and-take driving (where having a clutch peddle and gear lever to manipulate allows you get some enjoyment from stirring the gearbox and rev-matching), but that was never BMW's remit - even in the supplementary manual that came with the car, it talks about "when driving it on track" and this is where the car comes alive, as it is really the only place you can explore the monumental grip of the tyres without getting locked up anyway. Don't forget that despite subsequent BMW models having far more power, the CSL still remained the fastest car that BMW buit around the Nordschleife, until the introduction of the other limited edition model (the E92 M3 GTS @ 7:48), and that was twice the money of the CSL and was only 2s faster..... This goes to show just how good the CSL is and is one of the few cars that seems to punch well above it's weight and perform better than the sum of it's parts.

As to the cardboard floor, that is a myth started by Gezzer. The floor in the CSL is the same as in every E46 M3, it just has a fibre-board cover over the tool-kit and electric compressor - but then so do quite a lot of cars (even my old Sierra Cosworth had a fibre-board cover over the spare wheel).

To those wondering if the CSL and standard M3 are truly that much different, just drive them back to back and you wouldn't even recognise them as the same car if you closed your eyes (not to be recommended while you are driving wink ). A standard M3 feels like a barge by comparison and getting back into the CSL feels like you're in a go-kart that can be chucked around, where the M3 feels like the wing mirrors are going to scrape on the ground by comparison wink.

Don't get me wrong, a normal M3 can be made into a PROPER weapon, but it is obviously compromised far more as BMWs target audience for this model was a much more diverse range of people, where the CSL is a far more focused proposition that was built to show-off BMW's motorsport pedigree and all their material technologies. Don't forget this was 2003, so carbon fibre roof and the SMG box were considered to be cutting edge LOL. Also don't forget it wasn't until the introduction of the GT3 RS that even Porsche couldn't build a faster lapping car of the 'ring wink. Even the 400bhp / 1150kg Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale is 6 seconds slower - the CSL is truly remarkable.

Many of you will say that the 'ring lap times aren't relevant - but considering this is what BMW built the car to achieve in the first place, it has to be mentioned just how fast it is in comparison to much more expensive machinery and IMO is why it deserves its place in history.
^ Amen

161BMW

1,697 posts

164 months

Tuesday 7th July 2015
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ac427 said:
MattOz said:
Plus the CS gets bigger brakes, CS wheels, CSL exhaust manifolds, alcantara here and there.

Having owned both normal M3 and a CS, the CS is so much better to drive. Couldn't have a normal M3 again after a CS.
True, Slightly bigger discs and calipers spaced further out i agree are better than standard like the CSL.

The CSL exhaust manifolds offer no performance gain only a saving in weight of next to nothing. They were fitted to all standard M3's after 05 anyway.

The CS Wheels can be purchased but most people just buy CSL wheels instead.

The CS is not lighter than a standard M3.

My point is you can exceed the CS option spec on a standard car. CSL Steering rack, AP brakes and your done.

If CS prices go stratopheric you'll be able to exceed the spec for less.
Look at BMW Real OEM

Rear wheels
CSL and CS share the same rear wheels as part numbers are the SAME

Front wheels
CS wheels are slightly narrower than CSL wheels
Someone did weigh them both and they weigh virtually the same.

Mike Rainbird

215 posts

216 months

Tuesday 7th July 2015
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TREMAiNE said:
Its not all about speed and lap times!
According to BMW engineers involved in the project, that is precisely what the CSL is all about though (hence why (like the new 991 GT3 / RS), it was only ever offered with the SMG gearbox). It wasn't designed for any other purpose than to take the production lap record for its class smile.

TREMAiNE

3,904 posts

148 months

Tuesday 7th July 2015
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Mike Rainbird said:
TREMAiNE said:
Its not all about speed and lap times!
According to BMW engineers involved in the project, that is precisely what the CSL is all about though (hence why (like the new 991 GT3 / RS), it was only ever offered with the SMG gearbox). It wasn't designed for any other purpose than to take the production lap record for its class smile.
After reading your pretty big post (which was really interesting, btw), I concede that my comment is irrelevant!

Having said that, personally I still prefer to own a 360 than a CSL - it just appeals to me more. I've not been in a CSL admittedly, but I've seen several in the flesh and whilst I do respect them, they just don't give me that 'fuzzy feeling'! smile

hot66

695 posts

216 months

Tuesday 7th July 2015
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cerb4.5lee said:
Welcome to pistonheads smile I am sure its a great machine to drive and it could go around the ring in two minutes for me but it can never hide the fact the its still only a 3 series and is based on a boring standard car in the first place.

I prefer something that is designed from the ground up as a sports car or track car rather than something tarted up...in fairness though with the money they fetch it certainly doesn't seem to bother the ones that own/buy them.
But you only 'think' this ...... as you admit you've not driven one .... I'm a massive porsche fan, air cooled and manual gearboxes only for me in what most would admit is a proper 'sports car' ( I have 2 parked next to my csl ) .... The CSL is no lesser a car and in some respects more fun. Even the gearbox ( which before driving one I'd convinced myself I wouldn't like) imho adds to the experience and I definitely wouldn't want a manual csl


moktabe

895 posts

104 months

Tuesday 7th July 2015
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Yanto said:
Shhhhh....don't tell him Pike smile
No point.

We're only owners.

We know nothing :-)

Mike Rainbird

215 posts

216 months

Tuesday 7th July 2015
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TREMAiNE said:
After reading your pretty big post (which was really interesting, btw), I concede that my comment is irrelevant!

Having said that, personally I still prefer to own a 360 than a CSL - it just appeals to me more. I've not been in a CSL admittedly, but I've seen several in the flesh and whilst I do respect them, they just don't give me that 'fuzzy feeling'! smile
Horses for courses, but I personally don't think the 360s poor performance to running cost ratio makes it even worth considering. Treat it other than as a pretty bauble and the running costs make even rich people wince (hence why so few actually get used how a performance car should be and instead remain garage queens merely to be seen in).

I personally use my CSL how BMW intended (regular Ring trips) and despite its ever increasing value at the moment, will try to continue to do so, purely because the chassis is so balanced it is an absolute joy to drive on or over the limit.

161BMW

1,697 posts

164 months

Tuesday 7th July 2015
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Mike Rainbird said:
According to BMW engineers involved in the project, that is precisely what the CSL is all about though (hence why (like the new 991 GT3 / RS), it was only ever offered with the SMG gearbox). It wasn't designed for any other purpose than to take the production lap record for its class smile.
Where did it say BMW engineers did it to break production lap record for its class ? No heard that before.
Also define what is the class of CSL ? Sports saloons or sports cars ? Supercars ?

I have driven CSL and had a passenger ride courtesy of Nick Johnson.
Sounded alright but didn't sound as loud as I had hoped or expected. I didn't push it anywhere near its limit but felt maybe a tad quicker. Nick did drive the wheels of it and yeah it was quick in his hands. I have no problem with SMGII.

Yeah you prob could make regular E46 M3 just as quick as CSL by trimming weight and adding many CSL parts. But it wouldn't be exactly a CSL unless u out a lot of effort adding £20k plus of CSL parts.
Also is a bit like a painting. Yeah u can have a replica "Van Gogh / Da Vinci" or you can have the real thing "Van Gogh / Da Vinci"

I really wouldn't mind CSL as an everyday car. Probably one with average miles would do. Would go well with my E46 M3 CS.

How does CSL compare with Aston Martin V8 Vantage Coupe to drive and for sound and running costs ? Anyone ?

TREMAiNE

3,904 posts

148 months

Tuesday 7th July 2015
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Mike Rainbird said:
I personally don't think the 360s poor performance to running cost ratio makes it even worth considering.
I dread to think what opinion you'd have on my RX-8 hehe

We've obviously got a different taste in cars - but this place would be boring if we all liked the same stuff!


If I come across as disliking the CSL, I just want to say I don't, I love it - Its just not something I'd want to spend my money on! I'd rather buy a Ferrari that will bankrupt me wink

0836whimper

974 posts

197 months

Tuesday 7th July 2015
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161BMW said:
I have driven CSL and had a passenger ride courtesy of Nick Johnson.
Sounded alright but didn't sound as loud as I had hoped or expected.
Mmmm...ok, never ever heard anyone say that before, maybe Sport wasn't selected or something. A CSL downshift blip bouncing off a rock wall still makes me giggle. Youtube is your friend.
161BMW said:
How does CSL compare with Aston Martin V8 Vantage Coupe to drive and for sound and running costs ? Anyone ?
Aston is slower, sloppier, quieter (and a waste of time on track) but probably better for showing off, for people concerned about that sort of thing.

Also (and not that I think a 'no option' CSL is worth anything extra), I am informed that there are more than three poverty spec examples around, so the ad needs correcting.

Edited by 0836whimper on Tuesday 7th July 21:41

g3org3y

20,606 posts

190 months

Tuesday 7th July 2015
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Shame to think I've missed the boat on these. Far too expensive for me. frown

They do look ruddy brilliant though. cloud9



  • sigh*
As a side note, I don't BMW ever captured the same magic (or at least uber cult status) with the E92 GTS (though relatively early days post release). I do wonder what will happen to prices/values of those.

161BMW

1,697 posts

164 months

Tuesday 7th July 2015
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TREMAiNE said:
Mike Rainbird said:
I personally don't think the 360s poor performance to running cost ratio makes it even worth considering.
I dread to think what opinion you'd have on my RX-8 hehe

We've obviously got a different taste in cars - but this place would be boring if we all liked the same stuff!


If I come across as disliking the CSL, I just want to say I don't, I love it - Its just not something I'd want to spend my money on! I'd rather buy a Ferrari that will bankrupt me wink
360 Modena or CSL

No contest CSL anyday over a lowly 360 Modena
CSL looks nicer for a start
And has a better engine as has beaten 360 engine in engine of the year awards

Mike Rainbird

215 posts

216 months

Tuesday 7th July 2015
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161BMW said:
Where did it say BMW engineers did it to break production lap record for its class ? No heard that before.
Also define what is the class of CSL ? Sports saloons or sports cars ? Supercars ?

I have driven CSL and had a passenger ride courtesy of Nick Johnson.
Sounded alright but didn't sound as loud as I had hoped or expected. I didn't push it anywhere near its limit but felt maybe a tad quicker. Nick did drive the wheels of it and yeah it was quick in his hands. I have no problem with SMGII.

Yeah you prob could make regular E46 M3 just as quick as CSL by trimming weight and adding many CSL parts. But it wouldn't be exactly a CSL unless u out a lot of effort adding £20k plus of CSL parts.
Also is a bit like a painting. Yeah u can have a replica "Van Gogh / Da Vinci" or you can have the real thing "Van Gogh / Da Vinci"

I really wouldn't mind CSL as an everyday car. Probably one with average miles would do. Would go well with my E46 M3 CS.

How does CSL compare with Aston Martin V8 Vantage Coupe to drive and for sound and running costs ? Anyone ?
Even now (12 years on), there is not a faster car around the 'ring that can also carry four full size adults and all their luggage......

As.to the noise, a full Supersprint system helps there wink.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MT8rlEi-iDo

It's all about the weight - strip an E46 M3 down to 1200kg and it becomes more than a match for a CSL without requiring any of the fancy parts. However, it wouldn't be car you would want to use on a regular basis, but would run rings around the CSL.


CSLmarson

209 posts

194 months

Tuesday 7th July 2015
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TREMAiNE said:
Its not all about speed and lap times!
Couldn't agree more, if it wee you would just get a super light R

Fact of the matter is the CSL has the magic that neither a standard M3 or a flabby 360 has

It's very clear you have never even sat in one let alone driven one.

P.s I will over take you on the outside in your 360 xx

Nickbrapp

5,277 posts

129 months

Tuesday 7th July 2015
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70K for a 10 year old car with no xenons?