RE: Mini John Cooper Works: PH Fleet

[nickfrog]

So if you can't afford the £23k manual JCW (with a few options, after discount) and looks/image are so important to you, you slag it off on PH with obvious frustration/anger.

What about people for whom £23k is not a big deal and more importantly don't give a toss about image/looks or what the aforementioned people may think of them ?

For a minority of PHers, the driving experience may count for something and if the JCW happens to be the car for them, I am really glad for them. They may have pragmatically chosen the car despite its image or despite some clearly bitter losers who should stop moaning and get a proper job !!!!

Edited by nickfrog on Thursday 9th July 18:50

[lord trumpton]

nickfrog said:

So if you can't afford the £23k manual JCW (with a few options, after discount) and looks/image are so important to you, you slag it off on PH with obvious frustration/anger.

What about people for whom £23k is not a big deal and more importantly don't give a toss about image/looks or what the aforementioned people may think of them ?

For a minority of PHers, the driving experience may count for something and if the JCW happens to be the car for them, I am really glad for them. They may have pragmatically chosen the car despite its image or despite some clearly bitter losers who should stop moaning and get a proper job !!!!

Edited by nickfrog on Thursday 9th July 18:50

Nickfrog - maybe it's not as clear cut as affordability for some - maybe its to do with not wanting to spend such a large amount on an ecu tweaked mini with little practicality?

As for the comment about some being bitter losers who should stop moaning and get a proper job - well that's a little bit of a y thing to say isn't it? Some may struggle for whatever reason to better their career or have other commitments or perhaps not had any luck.

[nickfrog]

Agreed, I am sure it's true for some. But taking their frustration out on a car they don't like and never driven is not gonna help their case much.

[Antj]

JimmyFQ360 said:

Fat Bloater compared to the R56?
The F56 is 40kg heavier than the R56 at 1250kg compared to 1210kg

So that's 184bhp/tonne (new) vs 174bhp/tonne (old)

Ain't physics a bh

Jimmy, it is a bloater, physics is a bh as this new one does not handle like the old one. I've had 4 minis, from silly tuned 285bhp superchagred one to an R56 JCW. So i expected a lot out of this JCW, but it was not sporting. It may be a better on road experience but if that's all you want i would suspect the basic S would be a better base and would make much better financial sense. The centre of gravity feels higher too, i'm sure its a fair bit taller than the old one as i had no issue with a helmet on and at 6ft 3 which i would have expected based on old ones. Base weight may be 40kg more, but optioned up with all the noddy bits i bet its more likely 80-90kg more.

when every other car manufacturer is reducing weights and reducing engine sizes it seems mad that mini have gone the other way...... oh and lets not start on the elephant man in the room,,,,,, the 5dr and Clubman which are supposedly getting JCW treatment, sorry but Mini has lost its way and i would expect as a result lost a lot of its customer base. a 30k specced jcw with 230bhp or one of the similar priced hyper hatches from honda , ford or VW. hell you're nearly in 235i money

[nickfrog]

It's not £30k. It's £23k in manual before discount with good std spec.

[Oddball RS]

Well not wanting to upset nickfrog,

I'm sticking with, Christ that's one unresolved ugly looking mess (at any price).

[anonymous-user]

Oddball RS said:

Well not wanting to upset nickfrog,

I'm sticking with, Christ that's one unresolved ugly looking mess (at any price).

It is a bit of an ugly bugger.

[JimmyFQ360]

Antj said:

Jimmy, it is a bloater, physics is a bh as this new one does not handle like the old one. I've had 4 minis, from silly tuned 285bhp superchagred one to an R56 JCW. So i expected a lot out of this JCW, but it was not sporting. It may be a better on road experience but if that's all you want i would suspect the basic S would be a better base and would make much better financial sense. The centre of gravity feels higher too, i'm sure its a fair bit taller than the old one as i had no issue with a helmet on and at 6ft 3 which i would have expected based on old ones. Base weight may be 40kg more, but optioned up with all the noddy bits i bet its more likely 80-90kg more.

when every other car manufacturer is reducing weights and reducing engine sizes it seems mad that mini have gone the other way...... oh and lets not start on the elephant man in the room,,,,,, the 5dr and Clubman which are supposedly getting JCW treatment, sorry but Mini has lost its way and i would expect as a result lost a lot of its customer base. a 30k specced jcw with 230bhp or one of the similar priced hyper hatches from honda , ford or VW. hell you're nearly in 235i money

Ok, I'll do this backwards. Money for me and a lot of Mini buyers is not an option, My R56 JCW cost me 27k fully spec'd and this one is just over 5k more with much higher spec (seats for one, tons better than the R56!! plus full iDrive, park assist, adaptive dampers, lights and cruise to name but a few options that weren't available on the R56)
Mini have expanded their range based on the perceived demand by customers, and now they have announced that they will be trimming down the range too (No Coupe or Roadster, i think the Paceman is for the chop too).
My Mini history is "proper" too. 1982 998HL that turned into a 177bhp Avonbar/KAD hillclimb/rally special, a 1990 Cooper 1.3i, the R56JCW and now the F56 JCW.
The F56 does not handle like the R56 no, it's more refined and more predictable without the aforementioned rut-chasing. [CAVEAT] With me at the wheel [/CAVEAT] it's faster over one of my favourite routes by some considerable margin, it doesn't torque steer like the R56 did, and the power delivery is just better, torque is earlier and much more progressive. I'm off to Spa in it soon, so I'll know for sure what it can do. I've not noticed any additional body roll, it still cock's a rear wheel just like the R56 but the Pirelli's need serious heat to get going. They will be replaced before Spa.

I don't understand the downer on the F56 tbh, it's different sure, but looks are subjective. The problem is CHANGE. Humans don't like it... My Evo X was panned for being fat and slow until people realised how fast it was... I'm used to it but it annoys me...

Edited by JimmyFQ360 on Thursday 9th July 21:20

[Guspro]

JimmyFQ360 said:

Ok, I'll do this backwards. Money for me and a lot of Mini buyers is not an option, My R56 JCW cost me 27k fully spec'd and this one is just over 5k more with much higher spec (seats for one, tons better than the R56!! plus full iDrive, park assist, adaptive dampers, lights and cruise to name but a few options that weren't available on the R56)
Mini have expanded their range based on the perceived demand by customers, and now they have announced that they will be trimming down the range too (No Coupe or Roadster, i think the Paceman is for the chop too).
My Mini history is "proper" too. 1982 998HL that turned into a 177bhp Avonbar/KAD hillclimb/rally special, a 1990 Cooper 1.3i, the R56JCW and now the F56 JCW.
The F56 does not handle like the R56 no, it's more refined and more predictable without the aforementioned rut-chasing. [CAVEAT] With me at the wheel [/CAVEAT] it's faster over one of my favourite routes by some considerable margin, it doesn't torque steer like the R56 did, and the power delivery is just better, torque is earlier and much more progressive. I'm off to Spa in it soon, so I'll know for sure what it can do. I've not noticed any additional body roll, it still cock's a rear wheel just like the R56 but the Pirelli's need serious heat to get going. They will be replaced before Spa.

I don't understand the downer on the F56 tbh, it's different sure, but looks are subjective. The problem is CHANGE. Humans don't like it... My Evo X was panned for being fat and slow until people realised how fast it was... I'm used to it but it annoys me...

Edited by JimmyFQ360 on Thursday 9th July 21:20

Hi Jimmy rightly said.On another note I have a JCW arriving in a couple of weeks time and i was wondering whether it would be a good idea to replace the Pirelli run flats immediately. Did you have anything specific in mind. I was actually considering to opt for Michelin 215/40R18 89Y MICHELIN PILOT SUPER SPORT XL or the Dunlop Sport Maxx, any suggestions from your end ?

Cheers Gus

[JimmyFQ360]

Guspro said:

Hi Jimmy rightly said.On another note I have a JCW arriving in a couple of weeks time and i was wondering whether it would be a good idea to replace the Pirelli run flats immediately. Did you have anything specific in mind. I was actually considering to opt for Michelin 215/40R18 89Y MICHELIN PILOT SUPER SPORT XL or the Dunlop Sport Maxx, any suggestions from your end ?

Cheers Gus

If I stick with the run flats I'll switch to the Bridgestone Potenza, if not, I'll go for the Yokohama S-Drive. Both of these are the standard 205/40R18's though. If you want to go for the bigger 215, I'd suggest Dunlop over Michelin, but that's purely personal preference.

[nickfrog]

Ditch the RF. Go for Supersports, the best full tread road tyre around IME, and by quite a margin by all accounts. It will be a significant upgrade compared to RFTs. I can only imagine the lat grip of a MINI on Supersports, probably 1g.
RFTs fetch good money on ebay.

[Antj]

JimmyFQ360 said:

Ok, I'll do this backwards. Money for me and a lot of Mini buyers is not an option, My R56 JCW cost me 27k fully spec'd and this one is just over 5k more with much higher spec (seats for one, tons better than the R56!! plus full iDrive, park assist, adaptive dampers, lights and cruise to name but a few options that weren't available on the R56)
Mini have expanded their range based on the perceived demand by customers, and now they have announced that they will be trimming down the range too (No Coupe or Roadster, i think the Paceman is for the chop too).
My Mini history is "proper" too. 1982 998HL that turned into a 177bhp Avonbar/KAD hillclimb/rally special, a 1990 Cooper 1.3i, the R56JCW and now the F56 JCW.
The F56 does not handle like the R56 no, it's more refined and more predictable without the aforementioned rut-chasing. [CAVEAT] With me at the wheel [/CAVEAT] it's faster over one of my favourite routes by some considerable margin, it doesn't torque steer like the R56 did, and the power delivery is just better, torque is earlier and much more progressive. I'm off to Spa in it soon, so I'll know for sure what it can do. I've not noticed any additional body roll, it still cock's a rear wheel just like the R56 but the Pirelli's need serious heat to get going. They will be replaced before Spa.

I don't understand the downer on the F56 tbh, it's different sure, but looks are subjective. The problem is CHANGE. Humans don't like it... My Evo X was panned for being fat and slow until people realised how fast it was... I'm used to it but it annoys me...

Edited by JimmyFQ360 on Thursday 9th July 21:20

the downer is obvious surely because of the way the once nimble car has gone, but i'm not being negative, and i honestly can see why you went for one as obviously everybody has different needs from a car. i have already sidelined a diesel auto one to look at for when my daily is due replacement early next year. It will have big shoes to fill as my fabia VRS tsi has been pretty outstanding but comfort wise the mini has moved on a lot. but for what the the JCW is meant to be it has missed the point by a long way. its now a comfy cruiser in my opinion which is kind of the role the Cooper S had , the JCW was meant to be hardcore, when they first came out in R56 shape they came with nothing on options to par them down. When i had my JCW i had one car for everything, but i soon realised that there is no such thing and went for a sensible new daily and then went full retard on my civic with cage stripped, power etc, i was that close to signing for a GP2 last year but it became obvious i would end up compromised.

If you ever get the chance, take a GP2 out try that and then see how good the R56 finally became at the end of it's life. Almost renaultesque the way Mini always saves the best for last.

If you are at spa on the October Circuit days one i'll look out for you,

Edited by Antj on Friday 10th July 13:23

[EricE]

Sep said:

It's a genuinely fun car to be in, and not to be taken too seriously. At least in manual form the driving experience is just hilarious! ( I've not driven an auto JCW). I'd probably go so far as to say it's more fun 'in the real world' than driving my M6.

Sep

I agree, it's very easy to find a car thats better built or more competent or simply faster but surprisingly hard to find one that's more fun to drive within the speed limits around town.
The harmless "oh it's just a Mini"-image is great too, I never got a ticket with that car.

[JimmyFQ360]

nickfrog said:

Ditch the RF. Go for Supersports, the best full tread road tyre around IME, and by quite a margin by all accounts. It will be a significant upgrade compared to RFTs. I can only imagine the lat grip of a MINI on Supersports, probably 1g.
RFTs fetch good money on ebay.

If you can, I agree. Wifey insists on RF's as she had a huge hole appear in the OSF of her R56 from metal detritus on the M3 at *ahem* 70mph and the only thing she knew about it was the "*bong* You have a puncture" message. She then pootled 20 miles to a garage, got a new tyre and carried on.

I've already ordered a spare set of the JCW rims for winter boots, not sure I could get away with another set for hooning about Spa!

[JimmyFQ360]

Antj said:

the downer is obvious surely because of the way the once nimble car has gone, but i'm not being negative, and i honestly can see why you went for one as obviously everybody has different needs from a car. i have already sidelined a diesel auto one to look at for when my daily is due replacement early next year. It will have big shoes to fill as my fabia VRS tsi has been pretty outstanding but comfort wise the mini has moved on a lot. but for what the the JCW is meant to be it has missed the point by a long way. its now a comfy cruiser in my opinion which is kind of the role the Cooper S had , the JCW was meant to be hardcore, when they first came out in R56 shape they came with nothing on options to par them down. When i had my JCW i had one car for everything, but i soon realised that there is no such thing and went for a sensible new daily and then went full retard on my civic with cage stripped, power etc, i was that close to signing for a GP2 last year but it became obvious i would end up compromised.

If you ever get the chance, take a GP2 out try that and then see how good the R56 finally became at the end of it's life. Almost renaultesque the way Mini always saves the best for last.

If you are at spa on the October Circuit days one i'll look out for you,

Edited by Antj on Friday 10th July 13:23

Still disagree with you, but I'm a stubborn sod. Did the F56 JCW you drove have the adaptive dampers? With them on it feels just as tight as the R56 but "better" (less of a wrestling match!) With it all in squidgy or with standard dampers it is softer I'll grant you, but I can't see many being ordered without.
I'm not sure the JCW has ever been the "track weapon" some people think it is, that's always been the domain of the GP's (I have driven both the 53 and 56 GP's). I look forward to the GP3 as it is likely to have a quite serious hike in power from the 2.0 and i reckon close to 1100kgs with a bit of imagination.

We are banging on senselessly mind you, the BMW Mini has always been "Marmite" and I remember the outrage and vitriol on here and elsewhere when the R53 then the R56 were launched.

Bearing in mind I come from a family who's first Mini was bought at the 1959 motorshow and sold when Nan stopped being able to drive in 1994 (4 engines and about a million subframes later) and everyone in the family has had a "proper" mini at some stage or other, I have to say I'm a fan of the BMW version. As much of the character as possible has been retained within the bounds of modern legislation, remember, the F56 is only bigger (and only 5" iirc) because of the new pedestrian cuddling regs..

Also, MINI peeps and BMW MINI give not one toss what "petrol heads" think, we're not their target audience. They will sell them by the ship-load and much of the rest of the world will still see them as achingly cool, because they're "British" with the added benefit of not being built by BL comrades.

[Oddball RS]

"I have to say I'm a fan of the BMW version. As much of the character as possible has been retained within the bounds of modern legislation, remember, the F56 is only bigger (and only 5" iirc) because of the new pedestrian cuddling regs.."


Without wanting to be too critical, what character has been kept? the name? the original was not ugly, it was also called a Mini because it was small, modern legislation doesn't exclude small cars, although it is a lot more challenging to design them than it used to be. It used to be a small classless icon, and in sporting guise a giant killer, the current products are none of those things never mind all of them.

[delta0]

Oddball RS said:

"I have to say I'm a fan of the BMW version. As much of the character as possible has been retained within the bounds of modern legislation, remember, the F56 is only bigger (and only 5" iirc) because of the new pedestrian cuddling regs.."


Without wanting to be too critical, what character has been kept? the name? the original was not ugly, it was also called a Mini because it was small, modern legislation doesn't exclude small cars, although it is a lot more challenging to design them than it used to be. It used to be a small classless icon, and in sporting guise a giant killer, the current products are none of those things never mind all of them.

They are even more of a giant killer as far as I am aware. By modern standards the original is not fast, not even remotely. A 2.0 JCW does 30-70 in 4.6s, that does just about every car on the road. http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/mini/mini/91755/mini-...

Edited by delta0 on Monday 13th July 20:36

[JimmyFQ360]

Oddball RS said:

"I have to say I'm a fan of the BMW version. As much of the character as possible has been retained within the bounds of modern legislation, remember, the F56 is only bigger (and only 5" iirc) because of the new pedestrian cuddling regs.."


Without wanting to be too critical, what character has been kept? the name? the original was not ugly, it was also called a Mini because it was small, modern legislation doesn't exclude small cars, although it is a lot more challenging to design them than it used to be. It used to be a small classless icon, and in sporting guise a giant killer, the current products are none of those things never mind all of them.

What I meant "driving characteristics" and I mean that by the four-square handling and things like the "mid corner bounce/jitter" that the original had and still makes me laugh. Compare the BMW Mini to, say, a 911, the 991 (or the 997) barely even feels like the same kind of transport, let alone marque, than my old '74 did, but it's much "better" (primarily because it doesn't try and kill you at every given opportunity).

The F56 doesn't come to a grinding halt when you drive it through a puddle because there isn't 2 fl oz of water in the distributor, it doesn't leak, the radius arms wont give up every few 000 miles of tough driving because it doesn't have any, the seats don't make your arse go numb after 23 minutes, our shopping wont have to be put on the back seats or taste of petrol, it won't go rusty when it's 18 months old, the engine wont need new stabiliser bar bushes all the frikkin time, I won't need to have the heater on full when the outside temp goes over 75deg F, the CV joint gaters wont be made of soviet block recycled rubber so will stay intact for more that 3 weeks, you can hear yourself think at 70mph and the F56JCW goes from 0-62 in 6.1s not 13.4s or longer.

If you want an old mini, or even an earlier R53 or 56, go ahead, but please don't call me an idiot or tell me that something I think is "attractive" is ugly. I would never say that to you even if you drove a Austin Maxi....

The problem with the internet (and I really mean PH) is that people are so bloody rude. I posted here to defend what I think is a pretty good little car designed and made by people who know what they're doing and distributed and sold (on the whole) by a fantastic group of people. I probably shouldn't have bothered....

[Fetchez la vache]

Yikes it's huge.
I thought it was a Countryman to start with.
Surely everything that made the "original" new mini so appealing has long gone?

[Antj]

JimmyFQ360 said:

I posted here to defend what I think is a pretty good little car designed and made by people who know what they're doing and distributed and sold (on the whole) by a fantastic group of people. I probably shouldn't have bothered....

none of those guys could have been on the clubman project then ....lol proof that designing a car the morning after the christmas party is never a good idea