New definition of quick. 0 -100 mph time
Discussion
In 2015, i rather suspect that all cars are "fast". With hot hatches having 0-60 times in the low 6's high 5's, sporting saloons now in the low 4's high 3's and the truly mad stuff dipping into the 2's, there is really getting to be little real world difference in their performance, imo.
Unless you have a completely empty dual carriageway and a scant regard for the law or anyone's safety (neither of which occur very often) you'll never "drop" a hot hatch these days, even in a supposedly much faster car........
Back say 25 years ago, super cars were in the 5's, but the average car was in the mid teens, which meant a big enough difference you could exploit. Today, unless you are on a race track, it's just about how stupid the driver of any particular car is.........
Unless you have a completely empty dual carriageway and a scant regard for the law or anyone's safety (neither of which occur very often) you'll never "drop" a hot hatch these days, even in a supposedly much faster car........
Back say 25 years ago, super cars were in the 5's, but the average car was in the mid teens, which meant a big enough difference you could exploit. Today, unless you are on a race track, it's just about how stupid the driver of any particular car is.........
Max_Torque said:
In 2015, i rather suspect that all cars are "fast". With hot hatches having 0-60 times in the low 6's high 5's, sporting saloons now in the low 4's high 3's and the truly mad stuff dipping into the 2's, there is really getting to be little real world difference in their performance, imo.
Unless you have a completely empty dual carriageway and a scant regard for the law or anyone's safety (neither of which occur very often) you'll never "drop" a hot hatch these days, even in a supposedly much faster car........
Back say 25 years ago, super cars were in the 5's, but the average car was in the mid teens, which meant a big enough difference you could exploit. Today, unless you are on a race track, it's just about how stupid the driver of any particular car is.........
Not sure about that. 30-80 in a genuinely fast car will leave a hot hatch looking like it's standing still. Unless you have a completely empty dual carriageway and a scant regard for the law or anyone's safety (neither of which occur very often) you'll never "drop" a hot hatch these days, even in a supposedly much faster car........
Back say 25 years ago, super cars were in the 5's, but the average car was in the mid teens, which meant a big enough difference you could exploit. Today, unless you are on a race track, it's just about how stupid the driver of any particular car is.........
I agree that a lot of cars are now decently fast, though. But most people still drive very slowly on A and B roads, especially if driving a manual car. You can find yourself overtaking loads of cars in a 320d.
caelite said:
I believe 20-70 or 30-70 would be a far better standard. Not only because it is what people actually use, but because it also cuts out some car manufacturers (*cough* Citreon) harming the real world performance of there cars to make them look better on a 0-60 sheet. A common trick for this is the extra long 2nd gear given to some hot hatches meaning they can clip 60 before upping into 3rd, This of course makes them a d*ck to drive in reality (Saxo VTS?).
However that will make some of the rather quick hot DERVs out there seem relavent and PHers tend to hate that. A good example being some of the old 1.9TDI hot hatches (04+ Skoda Fabia VRS / SEAT Ibiza FR or Cupra) would beat an entry level Elise from 30-70, although at the same time having relatively slow 0-60s due to very short 1st and 2nd gears (8.5seconds for the fabia and ibiza FR, Mid 7s for the Cupra). This is before people spend £300 for a man with a laptop to extract 40% extra power from the motors, although obviously drivetrain issues come attatched to this.
Although I am really suprised that European manufacturers havnt tried to formally push this standard since it would give there sportyer dervs an even bigger edge on paper than there petrol engined (mostly) Japanese equivalent. However EU manufacturers, especially VAG dont even really seem interested in offering accurate numbers for there performance, with many of there cars beating the manufacturers claims (All the Skodas stripping a second off there manufacturers 0-60 times so that they would look worse than the VW / Audi equivalent, All the BMWs/Mercs that seem to ignore there 155mph limiters and go into the mid 160s)
In reality, most petrol hot hatches and performance cars only need one gearchange to hit 60mph so it seems strange to single Citroen out However that will make some of the rather quick hot DERVs out there seem relavent and PHers tend to hate that. A good example being some of the old 1.9TDI hot hatches (04+ Skoda Fabia VRS / SEAT Ibiza FR or Cupra) would beat an entry level Elise from 30-70, although at the same time having relatively slow 0-60s due to very short 1st and 2nd gears (8.5seconds for the fabia and ibiza FR, Mid 7s for the Cupra). This is before people spend £300 for a man with a laptop to extract 40% extra power from the motors, although obviously drivetrain issues come attatched to this.
Although I am really suprised that European manufacturers havnt tried to formally push this standard since it would give there sportyer dervs an even bigger edge on paper than there petrol engined (mostly) Japanese equivalent. However EU manufacturers, especially VAG dont even really seem interested in offering accurate numbers for there performance, with many of there cars beating the manufacturers claims (All the Skodas stripping a second off there manufacturers 0-60 times so that they would look worse than the VW / Audi equivalent, All the BMWs/Mercs that seem to ignore there 155mph limiters and go into the mid 160s)
More uncommon would be to find petrol sporty cars that need 2 changes to hit 60
ORD said:
Not sure about that. 30-80 in a genuinely fast car will leave a hot hatch looking like it's standing still.
For about 100 yards yes, the super car will pull ahead by a short distance. And then the Hatch will be right up behind the faster car again when you catch up with the next set of dawdlers / tailbacks / queues / traffic lights / pedestrian crossing / roundabout / T junction etc etc etc.Max_Torque said:
ORD said:
Not sure about that. 30-80 in a genuinely fast car will leave a hot hatch looking like it's standing still.
For about 100 yards yes, the super car will pull ahead by a short distance. And then the Hatch will be right up behind the faster car again when you catch up with the next set of dawdlers / tailbacks / queues / traffic lights / pedestrian crossing / roundabout / T junction etc etc etc.If both are at 30mph 1st gear and boot it at the same time through to 80mph there might be a car length maybe a touch more.
To me "leaving" or dropping another car is ahead by 200-300 foot in a sprint race that's owning them.
Max_Torque said:
For about 100 yards yes, the super car will pull ahead by a short distance. And then the Hatch will be right up behind the faster car again when you catch up with the next set of dawdlers / tailbacks / queues / traffic lights / pedestrian crossing / roundabout / T junction etc etc etc.
I agree with you. I have a couple of fairly quick cars and whilst I can easily out drag people and to a large extent out corner them too, there is no getting away from the fact that any sane person will lift off the loud pedal at a speed that much more humble cars can easily achieve and exceed.I thoroughly enjoy my big engines, but my neighbour's son in his C220d has little trouble keeping up in objective terms because he's happy to exceed speed limits by larger margins than I am (both from a legality/getting caught perspective but also from a practical/margin for error/Skoda/deer jumping out from a hedge perspective). Anything I can gain from superior engine power he can make up for by just accelerating for longer.
I still do overtake people daily, and whilst they're left behind it's because they want to go slow, brake for every change in direction in the road etc. If someone wants to keep up with you, they will do.
Welshbeef said:
otolith said:
The diesels only look particularly good when you force the cars to use a gear that favours them. Quite a useful figure if you don't know how to use a gearbox, I suppose.
Well if the "challenge" is 50-70 in 4th gear then it's totally relevant. Depends on what feat is being measured. Anyway only the D5 sneaks under 10 seconds to 100mph from the derv lot currently - actually sorry the M550d/remapped does it too.
otolith said:
Welshbeef said:
otolith said:
The diesels only look particularly good when you force the cars to use a gear that favours them. Quite a useful figure if you don't know how to use a gearbox, I suppose.
Well if the "challenge" is 50-70 in 4th gear then it's totally relevant. Depends on what feat is being measured. Anyway only the D5 sneaks under 10 seconds to 100mph from the derv lot currently - actually sorry the M550d/remapped does it too.
Look in autocar they do every single increment in every gear - what's relevant to each individual and circumstance is different. You might have grandma in the car so 2nd gear @55mph might not be the best idea whereas 4th doing the same would be fine.
Also not sure about you but when I overtake I do so at the pace I feel right each time different rarely is it max revs in any car I've had - sometimes of course but generally I've got more than enough power to do it in the gear I'm prevailing at.
Do you scream to the limiter past on every overtake?
s m said:
In reality, most petrol hot hatches and performance cars only need one gearchange to hit 60mph so it seems strange to single Citroen out
More uncommon would be to find petrol sporty cars that need 2 changes to hit 60
Ah I was just using the Saxo as an example as its one ive driven and I remember it feeling especially wierd. Shortish 1st then it holds on too 2nd forever, then back down the ratio into 3rd. Obviously a vehicle with a bigger torque-er engine can have the longer 2nd without getting bogged down like the Saxo does. A gearbox designed to redline in 1st before shifting to 2nd is a pig on the road. Other cars use displacement or turbos to get around this but several of the 00s cheaper hot hatches dont.More uncommon would be to find petrol sporty cars that need 2 changes to hit 60
Of course it's more a matter of people's attitudes to speed limits, etc, but the difference in acceleration can still be pretty remarkable.
I was alongside a 991 GT3 (probably close to 500bhp) in my wife's 320i (181bhp and a typical normal modern car) when the speed limit went from 30 to 70. I had the loud pedal on the floor, so did the guy in the Porsche. It felt like we were in reverse.
I was alongside a 991 GT3 (probably close to 500bhp) in my wife's 320i (181bhp and a typical normal modern car) when the speed limit went from 30 to 70. I had the loud pedal on the floor, so did the guy in the Porsche. It felt like we were in reverse.
Mr Tidy said:
Those VAG tractors seem pretty pedestrian - my 123d reportedly did 0-100kph in 7.0, my 325ti does about the same but I know which I prefer....but then my Z4C does so much better, and allegedly will do "mid 160s!" despite the limiter!
Heh I was just using them as an example because I remember the numbers vaguely off of the top of my head (I have a Fabia VRS). Not sure about all bimmers ofcourse I just know that a lot of them have rather vague limiters. Ive witnessed 1st hand an entirely stock E46 M3 hitting an indicated 163mph. Im not sure if this was not the true speed however I would assume the limiter would get its speed from the same place as the speedometer.I did a rwyb last year and came up against a few modern Porsche and Audi was with the twin clutch gear box and traction / launch control . couldn't get near them over the first 300ft despite having a large power and power to weight advantage . It seems like the technology to get power to the ground has come on a lot in recent years . A tuned rs4 with a 300 kg weight penalty ran very similar times to me
Welshbeef said:
Do you scream to the limiter past on every overtake?
I use the gearbox to exploit the most appropriate part of the power curve of the car I am driving. That is not the same in the Elise, which is all top end, and the Saab, which is all mid range. 30-70 in the wrong gear is only really useful for marketing men and pub bores (yeah, it's quicker 50-70 than a Ferrari if I'm in the right gear and he isn't)
otolith said:
I use the gearbox to exploit the most appropriate part of the power curve of the car I am driving. That is not the same in the Elise, which is all top end, and the Saab, which is all mid range.
30-70 in the wrong gear is only really useful for marketing men and pub bores (yeah, it's quicker 50-70 than a Ferrari if I'm in the right gear and he isn't)
To be fair though generally your not sitting ready in the right gear all the time for every single opportunity are you so by default you are going to be in the wrong gear and can and will get caught napping - heck you might be on a slow Sunday drive and get owned by some s30-70 in the wrong gear is only really useful for marketing men and pub bores (yeah, it's quicker 50-70 than a Ferrari if I'm in the right gear and he isn't)
t heap diesel while you've the 30 Jarah M5 but not even notice that they are trying. Not many people race or try to race on the public roads and if they do it's only a matter of time before a big accident or you get caught speeding then bye bye fast car and welcome Sierra 2.3 D
It's been used as a way to sell idiots diesel cars without them noticing that they're buying something utterly miserable.
At least 3 people have told me that their Audi 2.0 diesel is 'rapid'.
Back on topic, anything below 10 seconds to 100 is more than fast enough for any road driving. It may actually be slightly annoyingly fast in that it reduces the time spent accelerating to the point where you wish you could use the loud pedal more.
At least 3 people have told me that their Audi 2.0 diesel is 'rapid'.
Back on topic, anything below 10 seconds to 100 is more than fast enough for any road driving. It may actually be slightly annoyingly fast in that it reduces the time spent accelerating to the point where you wish you could use the loud pedal more.
ORD said:
Max_Torque said:
In 2015, i rather suspect that all cars are "fast". With hot hatches having 0-60 times in the low 6's high 5's, sporting saloons now in the low 4's high 3's and the truly mad stuff dipping into the 2's, there is really getting to be little real world difference in their performance, imo.
Unless you have a completely empty dual carriageway and a scant regard for the law or anyone's safety (neither of which occur very often) you'll never "drop" a hot hatch these days, even in a supposedly much faster car........
Back say 25 years ago, super cars were in the 5's, but the average car was in the mid teens, which meant a big enough difference you could exploit. Today, unless you are on a race track, it's just about how stupid the driver of any particular car is.........
Not sure about that. 30-80 in a genuinely fast car will leave a hot hatch looking like it's standing still. Unless you have a completely empty dual carriageway and a scant regard for the law or anyone's safety (neither of which occur very often) you'll never "drop" a hot hatch these days, even in a supposedly much faster car........
Back say 25 years ago, super cars were in the 5's, but the average car was in the mid teens, which meant a big enough difference you could exploit. Today, unless you are on a race track, it's just about how stupid the driver of any particular car is.........
I agree that a lot of cars are now decently fast, though. But most people still drive very slowly on A and B roads, especially if driving a manual car. You can find yourself overtaking loads of cars in a 320d.
My dailies are 560bhp M5 and 300bhp Golf R, and the former literally will leave the latter languishing in the queue by virtue of its power advantage and the increased overtaking opportunities. One of the key factors is that in the more powerful car you can plan to take many more dawdlers at a time... Just on Friday I cleared about 12 cars and a HGV on the Ludlow bypass in a series of safe, clear passes inbetween oncoming traffic, which might have been marginal or impossible in the slower car. If you're happy to sit at 30-40mhp everywhere then the difference is irrelevant, and I also believe that if you removed other traffic from the equation the hatch would keep up with more or less anything.
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