RE: Porsche 964 RS: Driven

RE: Porsche 964 RS: Driven

Tuesday 14th July 2015

Porsche 964 RS: Driven

Not without reservations but if someone offers you the chance to drive the first production Clubsport RS you've got to do it, right?



The ever-expanding balloon that is air-cooled 911 values shows no signs of deflating. And so I draw breath and add a lungful of my own. Because the cost of a drive in this rather special 964 RS lightweight is complicity in the hype that results in a Silverstone Auctions reserve of around £250,000. Almost exactly 10 times what a neighbour of mine sold a similar example for not so very long ago, before the likes of us started belatedly hyping it as The Best 911 Ever and values went silly.

Bidding finger twitching?
Bidding finger twitching?
So this is my way of getting the 'full disclosure' bit out of the way first. Upfront, the keys to this RS were dangled before us because it's going under the hammer at the Silverstone Classic and they clearly see the value in getting a star-struck fan boy to add another eulogy. Kerching!

Is a quarter of a million for an RS really that silly? Supply and demand, simple as that. And once a car reaches a certain level of desirability it becomes self-fulfilling prophecy and - ta da - a car that seemed pricey at half this amount just a year ago can still double its money in the blink of an eye. That this has happened to a car completely shunned and overlooked when new just adds to the rags to riches mystique. Unless you're my neighbour, for whom the platitude 'better to have loved and lost...' may seem a little raw.

Special measures
Is the RS really that special though? Annoyingly yes. You can try and rationalise it and say building a ground-up replica from a ratty old 964 Carrera would give you just as much fun. But even suitable donors for that kind of project are getting expensive now. And, loath to admit it, the exclusivity of having a 'proper' one is the kind of hoop the likes of us will jump through. They don't get much more proper than this one either, apparently the first factory built lightweight to ever be sold. According to Silverstone Auctions it was originally a gift from Porsche to loyal racer Ulrich Richter as enticement to return to the competition fold. He obliged, taking a podium in a 911 RSR at the 1994 Daytona 24-hour having moved the car on the previous year. That it was supplied to its owner outside of the regular retail network and - it's claimed - is the first production N/GT Clubsport (full club racer spec rather than the road-oriented Touring and standard cars) is aiding that burly estimate but even without it's not hard to see why the auctioneers are rubbing their hands.

Does all the old 911 things on the road - good
Does all the old 911 things on the road - good
Because stripped of the hype it is just a lovely, lovely thing. Showing just over 106,000km I've been told not to add even double digits to that total. So with the freshly repainted Maritime Blue glowing in the summer sunshine and an enticing squiggle of Surrey B-road to play with I'd best make 'em count.

In this league originality is of course paramount but this RS has the patina of a car that's been enjoyed by those lucky enough to have spent more time behind its wheel than me. The paint is fresh and the magnesium wheels look perfect. But the 888s they wear, the aftermarket air filter in the engine bay and the sweat-stained harnesses all suggest a car that's been used properly. Whatever it sells for you have to hope the new owner does the same.

Chuntering away to warm the fluids I pace around, chivvying snapper Tom to hurry up with the details so we can crack on and drive. Like all serious 911s the tickover is lumpy and off-beat, the car seemingly quivering with similar impatience to hit the road. Clambering through the cage and into the minimal Recaro seat there are the remnants of a familiar 964 interior in terms of a dash, basic switchgear and regular gearshifter and spoiler switch. But everything else is gone, leaving bare painted metal, exposed wiring and ventilation ducting in the footwells.

No distractions whatsoever, in other words.

Not that fast by modern standards; oh well...
Not that fast by modern standards; oh well...
Blink and you'd miss it
The fact the RS is one of the most hardcore roadgoing 911s the firm has ever sold and yet appears deliberately as similar as possible to a plain vanilla Carrera is likely one of the reasons it was so misunderstood when new. Back in the day Carrera stickers, ducktails and engorged arches set ruder models apart from regular 911s. And there's little chance of mistaking a modern RS for a boggo Carrera. But even the 964's steering wheel looks like a standard item, albeit smaller and with its own RS logo in the centre.

The illusion doesn't last long when you drive it though. The diff clanks and protests as you manoeuvre, the clutch feels stiff and the lack of inertia in the single-mass flywheel makes it very easy to stall. The smaller wheel means the unassisted steering is He-Man heavy at low speeds and if the exterior looks like a road car the interior is pure racer. So far so predictable.

What about that ride, pilloried as borderline undriveable on the road back in period? Maybe tastes have changed but it doesn't feel it now. Who knows, maybe we'll be saying this about the Alfa Romeo 4C in a few years time but that infamous stiffness and camber sensitivity feels like a beacon of sensitivity and communication compared with modern performance cars. The front wheels do like to sniff out the textures of the road and the wheel requires a firm hand but it's nuanced feedback rather than hysterical shouting. And for all the slammed ride height there's a pliancy in the (I'm told) standard springs and dampers that I'd describe as firm but fair.

You would if you could, right?
You would if you could, right?
It's not a car to pussyfoot around in though. Like all 'proper' 911s you have to know when to be subtle and when to grab it by the scruff of the neck and the more assertive you are in your inputs the better the RS gets. It all feels absolutely bulletproof too, from the short-throw and mechanical feeling gearshift to the massively powerful brakes and beautifully zingy engine. By modern standards it's not actually that fast, or at least not in a straight line. A well driven modern hot hatch would probably leave it standing. What it gives you is a thrill that comes from more than just outright speed though - it's the challenge of achieving it, of maintaining it, of savouring every last thrilling mile that passes under the wheels.

The cloud of that six-figure value never quite leaves you be but as a car to enjoy it's simply wonderful. Who knows, maybe those who had them when they were 25-grand cars that could be ragged without thought to future investment value really did have it better? I'll ask my neigh- ... actually, no I won't.


PORSCHE 911 CARRERA RS (964)
Engine:
3,600cc flat-6
Transmission: 5-speed manual, rear-wheel drive
Power (hp): 260@6,100rpm
Torque (lb ft): 240@4,800rpm
0-62mph: 5.4 sec*
Top speed: 162mph*
Weight: 1,230kg* (Lightweight version; Comfort 1,300kg)
MPG: N/A
CO2: N/A
Price: £250,000 (auction estimate)
*Figures for road-spec car

Photos: Tom Begley

[Sources: Silverstone Auctions, 964RSDatabase, Specialist Cars of Malton, Carfolio]

















Author
Discussion

fastgerman

Original Poster:

1,915 posts

196 months

Tuesday 14th July 2015
quotequote all
Gosh I'd take a Singer for that price

nicholasm

145 posts

186 months

Tuesday 14th July 2015
quotequote all
Dan, did your neighbour recently post this advert?

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...

belleair302

6,847 posts

208 months

Tuesday 14th July 2015
quotequote all
Prices on these cars is going up as with anything that carries NO capital gains tax...when you sell all of the profit is yours. A risky way to tie up your money however and sadly many of these collector cars will now never be driven.

g7jhp

6,969 posts

239 months

Tuesday 14th July 2015
quotequote all
The 964 (as the 3.2 Carrera) before it were a lovely size 911 you could just thread down the road.

The 964 RS in Maritime Blue is stunning, but £250k is a silly amount when you could pick up a C2 for a fraction of thee price. But they're a finite resource and I'm sure someone will snap it up, it'll be a shame if it gets put away in a collection and not driven as intended.


WCZ

10,537 posts

195 months

Tuesday 14th July 2015
quotequote all
will go for more than 250K

MCBrowncoat

890 posts

147 months

Tuesday 14th July 2015
quotequote all
Very nice....but I'd have the one on Four Star Classics for £100k less thanks...

wst

3,494 posts

162 months

Tuesday 14th July 2015
quotequote all
belleair302 said:
Prices on these cars is going up as with anything that carries NO capital gains tax...when you sell all of the profit is yours. A risky way to tie up your money however and sadly many of these collector cars will now never be driven.
The whole "cars as investments" thing makes my skin crawl. I love reading classic car magazines for the road tests, and to see what interesting machinery there is that I might not have exposure to, but they all spend an inordinate amount of time doing graphs of prices and talking about bubbles and face wiping and "I regret selling it because it's worth twice as much now" (instead of "I regret selling it because it was a bloody good car").

The value of a car is only of consequence to me when buying it, I would obviously feel a bit of a plonker to buy and then they drop in price tenfold the next week, it's natural (I bought a graphics card for my computer about 2 months before a whole new range that's 20% faster was released... d'oh), but beyond that I couldn't give a flying stuff. Those companies that buy cars for people as if they are stamps are just grim. I can tolerate stamps, because they are boring to 99.999% of people and don't do anything more than a photo of a stamp would do, but cars aren't just pretty (some are... decidedly not pretty), they move and do stuff and the obsession with depreciation and appreciation is rendering a lot of fantastic bits of engineering mere dioramas.

It would have been awful tempting to roll over to 10 miles in that car...

Krikkit

26,541 posts

182 months

Tuesday 14th July 2015
quotequote all
MCBrowncoat said:
Very nice....but I'd have the one on Four Star Classics for £100k less thanks...
For driving, yes, but the one in the article has the kind of provenance that means if the bubble doesn't burst, it'll always be worth a fortune.

goodhand

75 posts

214 months

Tuesday 14th July 2015
quotequote all
Just thumbing through an 11 year old copy of '911 & Porsche World'.



Quite an investment.

MCBrowncoat

890 posts

147 months

Tuesday 14th July 2015
quotequote all
Krikkit said:
MCBrowncoat said:
Very nice....but I'd have the one on Four Star Classics for £100k less thanks...
For driving, yes, but the one in the article has the kind of provenance that means if the bubble doesn't burst, it'll always be worth a fortune.
rolleyes Yeah I get that...

JamesAG

1 posts

106 months

Tuesday 14th July 2015
quotequote all
I had one when they were cheap - great on very smooth surfaces and track but the suspension was 'race car hard' and left me with internal bleeding and no fillings whenever I came across a bumpy road - the author is being very generous in his comments... good fun but £250k is totally insane and shows the crazy state of the market.

stuckmojo

2,983 posts

189 months

Tuesday 14th July 2015
quotequote all
It quacks like an advert, it walks like an advert.

It's not my prerogative to judge the totally irrational bubble - like all bubbles - in classic cars, but if you want to discuss merits and issues with a car like this, perhaps it would be better to first compare it with a benchmark.

Good luck to the fortunate rich person who buys this, no doubt he'll love it 10 times more than a common-as-much normal 964 C2.

Jamie Summers

409 posts

252 months

Tuesday 14th July 2015
quotequote all
goodhand said:
Just thumbing through an 11 year old copy of '911 & Porsche World'.



Quite an investment.
Funnily enough I remember that car and seriously considered it before buying a regular C2 for les money - bad move in hindsight ! If I recall that RS had more than a whiff of dodginess about it. It was being sold by a breaker / importer who does not usually deal with that sort of car. It had been "upgraded" with a 6 speed box, and whether it said it on the website or not (can't remember), there was certainly an implication that it had been crash damaged.
That said, even if the above was true, it would still be a £100k+ car now. I think it sold fairly quickly as was priced considerably below the market at that point. I wonder where it went to.....????

No doubt it is now a "full history", fully original, collector's car - or am I just cynical ?

Actus Reus

4,234 posts

156 months

Tuesday 14th July 2015
quotequote all
JZM have a 964 Turbo S Leichtbau up for sale - for half a million quid (which originally cost £130k in late 1992). If your pockets aren't deep enough for that, how about a 'Bad Boys' 964 for £230k? Lovely, lovely, lovely cars. Insane prices, granted, but I can kind of see why. Sadly I can't kind of afford any of them.

Terminator X

15,108 posts

205 months

Tuesday 14th July 2015
quotequote all
I've been to a Porsche trackday (perhaps 10 years ago) where the place was flooded with 964 RS's, doubt that would be the case today at those prices eek

TX.

Davey S2

13,097 posts

255 months

Tuesday 14th July 2015
quotequote all
I don't subscribe to Evo anymore but does Richard Meaden still have his 964 RS?

I think he paid less than £40K for it so will have done rather well if he has hung on to it.


boxsey

3,575 posts

211 months

Tuesday 14th July 2015
quotequote all
I've been a passenger in this car at Oulton Park and Donington Park with a previous owner. On each occasion it was driven as intended and was some of the best fun I've had on track. biggrin It's a shame that it is unlikely to ever be on a track again. frown

250GTE

121 posts

120 months

Tuesday 14th July 2015
quotequote all
Bought mine back in the day for 23,000 or so, sold it for 23,000 or so a few years later.

Drove it to Le mans, quickly, like you could back then, but can't now.

Amazingly good on a track or on very smooth tarmac.

"intense" best describes it.

Useless in any other circumstance.

When my friend (to whom I sold it) sells it for a massive pile of cash he has promised me a very good lunch.

Looking forward to it

jamespink

1,218 posts

205 months

Tuesday 14th July 2015
quotequote all
Having sold three 1970s 911s for between £4 to £6k and "passed" on a 2.7 RS for £4k in my time, this just serves to remind me of an aubergine 964 RS I almost bought when it was about 3 x years old (and still unloved).

RobM77

35,349 posts

235 months

Tuesday 14th July 2015
quotequote all
Davey S2 said:
I don't subscribe to Evo anymore but does Richard Meaden still have his 964 RS?

I think he paid less than £40K for it so will have done rather well if he has hung on to it.
Do you think he and Evo played any part in the escalation of 964 RS values? They did a massive Porsche issue a few years ago where they tested every significant 911 and voted the 964 RS as the best, above the much revered 2.7 RS from the early 70s.