RE: BMW 340i :Driven
Discussion
cerb4.5lee said:
I have always seen the 3 series as dull I agree...The XE is hardly a cutting edge headturner though either and they couldn't have designed the rearend to be anymore bland if they had tried.
It's good that the XE is a credible alternative to the german marque's now though.
Agreed the xe rear is a safe design although it looks ok with twin tail pipes on more powerful models. At least it looks good from the front to my eyes:It's good that the XE is a credible alternative to the german marque's now though.
3 series looks dull from every angle!
Edited by macky17 on Saturday 18th July 12:30
macky17 said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I have always seen the 3 series as dull I agree...The XE is hardly a cutting edge headturner though either and they couldn't have designed the rearend to be anymore bland if they had tried.
It's good that the XE is a credible alternative to the german marque's now though.
Agreed the xe rear is a safe design although it looks ok with twin tail pipes on more powerful models. At least it looks good from the front to my eyes:It's good that the XE is a credible alternative to the german marque's now though.
3 series looks dull from every angle!
Edited by macky17 on Saturday 18th July 12:30
they look pretty similar to me (being mid sized "sports" saloons)
The only variable/adaptive steering I've tried that was any good was the Adwest Variomatic hydraulic setup in my Rover P6, which was a peach - but otherwise give me a simple fixed ratio any day. That said, I'm not entirely sure the steering box in my 535i is fixed ratio, and that's also rather fine - better than the rack'n'pinion in my 520i, although I know the majority say the opposite is true.
Between a resurgent Mercedes-Benz C-class and two new offerings in the market from Jaguar and Alfa Romeo, BMW hasn't been this threatened in the rear-wheel-drive small(ish) executive car market in a long time, if ever. The 3-series has never looked weaker. BMW needs to go back to cars like the E46 and E39 and reflect on what it is that makes them so utterly delightful to punt down a B-road - i.e. the core features of really nicely-sorted hydraulic steering, an effervescent naturally-aspirated port-injection straight-six, and a manual gearbox (my V8 auto is fine, but it's not very BMW, somehow) - and look to recapture that. It doesn't matter how responsive they make the turbo calibration, how much they fiddle with the electric steering or how many ratios ZF throws into the autobox - it still won't make a proper BMW.
The manufacturers can and should stand up to those in the European Commission who are imposing the kind of CO2 emissions targets which are causing all this nonsense to appear on pretty much all new cars now. Direct injection is another of these cons - significantly increased NOx emissions compared to port injection and spoils the sound of the engine. The new car market today depresses me...
Between a resurgent Mercedes-Benz C-class and two new offerings in the market from Jaguar and Alfa Romeo, BMW hasn't been this threatened in the rear-wheel-drive small(ish) executive car market in a long time, if ever. The 3-series has never looked weaker. BMW needs to go back to cars like the E46 and E39 and reflect on what it is that makes them so utterly delightful to punt down a B-road - i.e. the core features of really nicely-sorted hydraulic steering, an effervescent naturally-aspirated port-injection straight-six, and a manual gearbox (my V8 auto is fine, but it's not very BMW, somehow) - and look to recapture that. It doesn't matter how responsive they make the turbo calibration, how much they fiddle with the electric steering or how many ratios ZF throws into the autobox - it still won't make a proper BMW.
The manufacturers can and should stand up to those in the European Commission who are imposing the kind of CO2 emissions targets which are causing all this nonsense to appear on pretty much all new cars now. Direct injection is another of these cons - significantly increased NOx emissions compared to port injection and spoils the sound of the engine. The new car market today depresses me...
RoverP6B said:
BMW needs to go back to cars like the E46 and E39 and reflect on what it is that makes them so utterly delightful to punt down a B-road
Do they?Let do the numbers:
1) New 3er comes out, with hydraulic steering, double wishbone suspension, an a 3l N/A 6 cyl engine with a manual gearbox. 1 car "geek" buys it because of this, but 100,000 other people are put off by the higher cost, poor performance and high CO2.
2) New 3er comes out, with 'lecy steering, strut suspension, and a 2.0 4cyl turbo and 8 spd auto. 100,000 people buy one.
Anyway you look at it BMW are doing precisely the right thing. Besides, the 340i isn't really there sporting 3er, just like the 335i wasn't. You buy the M3/M4 if you want the full fat sports model.........
Max_Torque said:
macky17 said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I have always seen the 3 series as dull I agree...The XE is hardly a cutting edge headturner though either and they couldn't have designed the rearend to be anymore bland if they had tried.
It's good that the XE is a credible alternative to the german marque's now though.
Agreed the xe rear is a safe design although it looks ok with twin tail pipes on more powerful models. At least it looks good from the front to my eyes:It's good that the XE is a credible alternative to the german marque's now though.
3 series looks dull from every angle!
Edited by macky17 on Saturday 18th July 12:30
they look pretty similar to me (being mid sized "sports" saloons)
The XE is far from ugly from the front for sure and for me they are both similar to look at and its worked for BMW so I am sure the same will apply to the Jag.
Dr S said:
Drove a pretty new rental 3-series the other day. The steering made me feel like driving a playstation. The only fun I had with it was switching mid corner from "normal" to "sport" setting, as the artificial nature of the steering was turned up to 11 and made me laugh out loud...
The steering is poor on the new 3 series I agree and I didn't like it one bit when I drove one as a loan car, have a 6 series and the steering is dire on that too. They offer absolutely no feel whatsoever and its hard just keeping them to drive in a straight line because the steering is so light and artificial.
My wife has an old e46 316, sitting on 195 width 15" tyres and knackered bushes all round. It's a pleasure to drive, because you can feel everything going on through the seat of your pants, the pedals and the wheel. Fast it is not, but fluid and enjoyable (for a dull saloon), yes.
My current 320d has 18" wheels with (FFS), 255 width rear tyres. There is an enormous difference in grip levels between my car and my wife's, however I'll be damned if you have a clue how near you are to really approaching the limit in mine, whereas the old 316 lets you know all along. The steering on the new car is direct and had a nice weight, albeit very little communication from front tyres to fingers.
Dare I say it, half the benefit of it being rwd, which to me is the feel unencumbered by traction messages, is gone. It might as well be front wheel drive.
My current 320d has 18" wheels with (FFS), 255 width rear tyres. There is an enormous difference in grip levels between my car and my wife's, however I'll be damned if you have a clue how near you are to really approaching the limit in mine, whereas the old 316 lets you know all along. The steering on the new car is direct and had a nice weight, albeit very little communication from front tyres to fingers.
Dare I say it, half the benefit of it being rwd, which to me is the feel unencumbered by traction messages, is gone. It might as well be front wheel drive.
allergictocheese said:
My wife has an old e46 316, sitting on 195 width 15" tyres and knackered bushes all round. It's a pleasure to drive, because you can feel everything going on through the seat of your pants, the pedals and the wheel. Fast it is not, but fluid and enjoyable (for a dull saloon), yes.
My current 320d has 18" wheels with (FFS), 255 width rear tyres. There is an enormous difference in grip levels between my car and my wife's, however I'll be damned if you have a clue how near you are to really approaching the limit in mine, whereas the old 316 lets you know all along. The steering on the new car is direct and had a nice weight, albeit very little communication from front tyres to fingers.
Dare I say it, half the benefit of it being rwd, which to me is the feel unencumbered by traction messages, is gone. It might as well be front wheel drive.
I was shocked when we first got our old 330d and the rear tyres were the same width as my Cerbera`s and I just couldn't really understand why a relatively unexciting saloon car would have such wide tyres! My current 320d has 18" wheels with (FFS), 255 width rear tyres. There is an enormous difference in grip levels between my car and my wife's, however I'll be damned if you have a clue how near you are to really approaching the limit in mine, whereas the old 316 lets you know all along. The steering on the new car is direct and had a nice weight, albeit very little communication from front tyres to fingers.
Dare I say it, half the benefit of it being rwd, which to me is the feel unencumbered by traction messages, is gone. It might as well be front wheel drive.
Regards your last sentence I agree completely and because they have ruined the steering so much now if anything dramatic happened at the rear end you probably wouldn't even realise because the front end is so numb.
neil-935ql said:
So another great car from BMW , trouble is its a lot of cash for a very ordinary looking BMW save your money and buy an older m3 !!
Sadly, you've hit the nail on the head; BMWs have become boring. Until recently, I spent 18-yrs owning at least 1 BMW. When some 17-yr old used his inexperience to write off my last BM it was time to go shopping. Being a BM guy, I was straight in for M3 and M4 test drives and all I could think of was - this simply does not feel like £60k worth of car. The outside was boring, the inside worse (almost exactly the same as 1-series), and even the engine sounded like sh!t (in an M3/4 dammit). A new C63 felt so much better - like £20k more expensive. Then for an extra few ££ I bought an F-type. I don't know if it's as fast as an M4. I don't know how it will stack up in reliability or resale value. All I know is that it's great everytime I'm in; it's beautiful, exciting, and feels special. That's the problem with BMW for me. I'm not sure they do a single car that makes you feel like that. They're always quick and efficient. They're great ownership propositions. They're safe and capable. But they're also soulless, dull, and therefore sad. Where's the fun BMW?
kbee540 said:
Sadly, you've hit the nail on the head; BMWs have become boring. Until recently, I spent 18-yrs owning at least 1 BMW. When some 17-yr old used his inexperience to write off my last BM it was time to go shopping. Being a BM guy, I was straight in for M3 and M4 test drives and all I could think of was - this simply does not feel like £60k worth of car. The outside was boring, the inside worse (almost exactly the same as 1-series), and even the engine sounded like sh!t (in an M3/4 dammit).
A new C63 felt so much better - like £20k more expensive. Then for an extra few ££ I bought an F-type. I don't know if it's as fast as an M4. I don't know how it will stack up in reliability or resale value. All I know is that it's great everytime I'm in; it's beautiful, exciting, and feels special. That's the problem with BMW for me. I'm not sure they do a single car that makes you feel like that. They're always quick and efficient. They're great ownership propositions. They're safe and capable. But they're also soulless, dull, and therefore sad. Where's the fun BMW?
interesting. Which F-Type did you choose and why? Haven't driven one yet but they do at least seem to offer character.A new C63 felt so much better - like £20k more expensive. Then for an extra few ££ I bought an F-type. I don't know if it's as fast as an M4. I don't know how it will stack up in reliability or resale value. All I know is that it's great everytime I'm in; it's beautiful, exciting, and feels special. That's the problem with BMW for me. I'm not sure they do a single car that makes you feel like that. They're always quick and efficient. They're great ownership propositions. They're safe and capable. But they're also soulless, dull, and therefore sad. Where's the fun BMW?
Robert Elise said:
kbee540 said:
Sadly, you've hit the nail on the head; BMWs have become boring. Until recently, I spent 18-yrs owning at least 1 BMW. When some 17-yr old used his inexperience to write off my last BM it was time to go shopping. Being a BM guy, I was straight in for M3 and M4 test drives and all I could think of was - this simply does not feel like £60k worth of car. The outside was boring, the inside worse (almost exactly the same as 1-series), and even the engine sounded like sh!t (in an M3/4 dammit).
A new C63 felt so much better - like £20k more expensive. Then for an extra few ££ I bought an F-type. I don't know if it's as fast as an M4. I don't know how it will stack up in reliability or resale value. All I know is that it's great everytime I'm in; it's beautiful, exciting, and feels special. That's the problem with BMW for me. I'm not sure they do a single car that makes you feel like that. They're always quick and efficient. They're great ownership propositions. They're safe and capable. But they're also soulless, dull, and therefore sad. Where's the fun BMW?
interesting. Which F-Type did you choose and why? Haven't driven one yet but they do at least seem to offer character.A new C63 felt so much better - like £20k more expensive. Then for an extra few ££ I bought an F-type. I don't know if it's as fast as an M4. I don't know how it will stack up in reliability or resale value. All I know is that it's great everytime I'm in; it's beautiful, exciting, and feels special. That's the problem with BMW for me. I'm not sure they do a single car that makes you feel like that. They're always quick and efficient. They're great ownership propositions. They're safe and capable. But they're also soulless, dull, and therefore sad. Where's the fun BMW?
kbee540 said:
Then for an extra few ££ I bought an F-type. I don't know if it's as fast as an M4. I don't know how it will stack up in reliability or resale value. All I know is that it's great everytime I'm in; it's beautiful, exciting, and feels special. That's the problem with BMW for me. I'm not sure they do a single car that makes you feel like that. They're always quick and efficient. They're great ownership propositions. They're safe and capable. But they're also soulless, dull, and therefore sad. Where's the fun BMW?
Pleased you are enjoying the F-Type and they are such a sexy looking motor and I love them to bits 
the way you describe modern BMW`s is absolutely spot on and I was left incredibly flat with my old E92 M3 for the exact reasons you describe.The F-Type is a car I would love a go in(the manual version as auto`s bore me) because they are a massive head turner, sound amazing from what I keep reading and have a cracking driving experience...Jag are seriously on a roll at the moment.
Edited by cerb4.5lee on Monday 20th July 22:39
Dr S said:
Drove a pretty new rental 3-series the other day. The steering made me feel like driving a playstation.
Yup. It's why I said no thanks after I had a test drive of the M235 last year when it came out, the electric steering was hideous. My E82 135i felt so much more 'alive' when I got back into it afterwards with it's lovely hydraulic steering and friskier chassis.
Can't see me buying any newer BMW in the near future.
aeropilot said:
Dr S said:
Drove a pretty new rental 3-series the other day. The steering made me feel like driving a playstation.
Yup. It's why I said no thanks after I had a test drive of the M235 last year when it came out, the electric steering was hideous. My E82 135i felt so much more 'alive' when I got back into it afterwards with it's lovely hydraulic steering and friskier chassis.
Can't see me buying any newer BMW in the near future.
I am torn because I genuinely like the idea of a M235i/M2 but the way BMW`s are going now with their woeful electric steering and obsession with saving fuel and chasing low emissions means that a BMW that is truly enjoyable to drive is a thing of the past sadly.
Edited by cerb4.5lee on Monday 20th July 23:01
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