RE: BMW 340i :Driven
Discussion
Max_Torque said:
It's also worth noting that all modern cars use the same components underneath, and are of course "built down to a price"! For example, BMW could replace the (cheap, fast to assemble, and rattle free) plastic door card clips, parts that 99.99999999% of owners never see or need to even notice, with some "over engineered" bolted fixings (which would cost 100 as much, take 100x longer to assemble, and almost certainly come loose and rattle at some point), but if they did that for all the "under engineered" parts, this car would cost >£60k!
I didn't claim that over-engineering was necessarily a good thing; just that they aren't doing it. Of course modern cars have got objectively better, no-one is denying that. However, that's not the same thing as saying that the quality of engineering has improved. I think the focus has shifted away from engineering quality towards engineering quantity, if that makes sense - cars sell on the basis of how many shiny features they have compared to the competition; manufacturers have realised that no-one gives a damn if those shiny features are still working and/or useful in 10 years time.
Edited by kambites on Friday 17th July 11:23
kambites said:
I mean in terms of the actual design and manufacturing quality of the components you can't easily see. Not just in terms of mechanical components, although I'd argue engines and gearboxes have got more complex faster than manufacturing tolerances have been able to keep up with. Take a door trim panel off an E36 and an F30; I suspect you'll break more clips on the F30 despite them obviously being much newer (I should point out I know nothing about the two cars in question, it's just the impression I've got of the way European cars have progressed in the last 25 years).
The Europeans, with the possible exception of the very top end of the market, seem to be competing to build down to a price rather than up to a quality level. Mercedes seem to have hit rock bottom and started heading upwards again in terms of build quality and VAG and BMW are still heading downwards (although they're not as bad as Mercedes got at their worst), from what I've seen.
ETA: I'm not blaming the European manufacturers for this, they're producing what their customers want for the prices their customers can pay. If the car buying public genuinely wanted high-quality engineering I'm sure the market would oblige but with cars being viewed more and more as consumables I don't think that's ever going to happen.
Whilst I mostly agree with your post, using the E36 isn't the best example. Interior quality really wasn't that generations forté, in fact in some of the early ones the door panels would probably fall off under their own steam......The Europeans, with the possible exception of the very top end of the market, seem to be competing to build down to a price rather than up to a quality level. Mercedes seem to have hit rock bottom and started heading upwards again in terms of build quality and VAG and BMW are still heading downwards (although they're not as bad as Mercedes got at their worst), from what I've seen.
ETA: I'm not blaming the European manufacturers for this, they're producing what their customers want for the prices their customers can pay. If the car buying public genuinely wanted high-quality engineering I'm sure the market would oblige but with cars being viewed more and more as consumables I don't think that's ever going to happen.
Edited by kambites on Friday 17th July 10:12
As for the 340i, I'll take one in Superman spec with a manual box please
kambites said:
I didn't claim that over-engineering was necessarily a good thing; just that they aren't doing it.
Of course modern cars have got objectively better, no-one is denying that. However, that's not the same thing as saying that the quality of engineering has improved.
eh? So they should "over engineer" things even if that makes the product worse?Of course modern cars have got objectively better, no-one is denying that. However, that's not the same thing as saying that the quality of engineering has improved.
(and i'm not sure what cars you've looked at where quality has fallen in a new model? I'm struggling to think of a single piece of a car where the new bit is actually "worse" than the old bit or doesn't perform it's function correctly (there are ALWAYS going to be some failures, it's impossible to build the practical 100% reliable car, or if you could, no one could afford to buy it). Considering that the complexity in cars has skyrocketed over the last 15 years, i think they are more reliable than they have ever been in real terms........)
Max_Torque said:
eh? So they should "over engineer" things even if that makes the product worse?
Where did I say they should over-engineer things? That would be a stupid idea, it would push up prices for little or no gain to the people who are buying the car. It would, however, be nice to have things engineered well enough that they aren't almost guaranteed to fail or obsolete themselves within what would traditionally be considered the life-time of the car. Modern car engines can do many hundreds of thousands of miles but the rest of the cars (including some of the engine ancillaries) just don't seem to be capable of the same thing. Cars have indeed got vastly more reliable in recent years, at least for the early parts of their lives. The bits that do break have tended to get a lot more expensive, though.
ETA: The big German manufacturers are doing entirely the right thing - they're producing products which lots of people are willing to pay a profitable price for. Cars have got better and, in real terms, cheaper. I can't be alone in wishing they've got more better and stayed the same price?
Edited by kambites on Friday 17th July 11:40
kambites said:
Cars have indeed got vastly more reliable in recent years, at least for the early parts of their lives. The bits that do break have tended to get a lot more expensive, though.
I think you'll find the difference in reliability between say a 1996 Ford Escort and a 2016 Ford Focus is due to the "internet" and is a perceived difference, rather than an actual one!In 1996, when the engine in your escort shat itself at 70kmiles, there were no internet forums to winge on. You, walked to the pub, and winged to a few of your mates. Now, thanks to forums and social media, people broadcast there failures world wide in seconds.
However, in reality, there are vast mileages being accrued by passenger car fleets in the millions without any issues. When was the last time someone you know (who isn't a car "Nut") even lifted the bonnet or checked their tyre pressures? For 99.9% of the motoring population, they just get in their (quiet, comfortable, fast, and efficient) car, and drive it, day in, day out.
For example, BMW alone sold 1.65M cars in 2013 (not including sub brands like Mini etc)! If these were actually regularly failing, you'd seen hundreds of 3 series stranded by the side of the road every day, but you don't.
Max_Torque said:
For example, BMW alone sold 1.65M cars in 2013 (not including sub brands like Mini etc)! If these were actually regularly failing, you'd seen hundreds of 3 series stranded by the side of the road every day, but you don't.
As I said they're getting much more reliable in the early parts of their lives. However, I suspect that in 2023, the vast majority of those 2013 BMWs will have been pushed beyond economical repair by mechanical or electronic failures not because they're less reliable than older cars but because the cost of the sorts of parts which tend to fail can be astronomical and the increasingly tight packaging of mechanical components is pushing up labour rates for many jobs. olivebrown said:
So BMW deliberately avoid installing LED rear lights on new models, just so they can put them on a facelift.
In a word, YES!BMW are masters at managing the life cycle of their products, and always leave themselves room for an LCi (life Cycle Impulse) facelift to boost volumes before a completely new model comes out!
It's taken companies like JLR ages to realise this, hence often their cars come out, are in the limelight for about 10mins, then get outspec'd or overtaken by the competition........
Max_Torque said:
olivebrown said:
So BMW deliberately avoid installing LED rear lights on new models, just so they can put them on a facelift.
In a word, YES!kambites said:
Max_Torque said:
For example, BMW alone sold 1.65M cars in 2013 (not including sub brands like Mini etc)! If these were actually regularly failing, you'd seen hundreds of 3 series stranded by the side of the road every day, but you don't.
As I said they're getting much more reliable in the early parts of their lives. However, I suspect that in 2023, the vast majority of those 2013 BMWs will have been pushed beyond economical repair by mechanical or electronic failures not because they're less reliable than older cars but because the cost of the sorts of parts which tend to fail can be astronomical and the increasingly tight packaging of mechanical components is pushing up labour rates for many jobs. You are buying a new car, you have a choice:
Car 1 and Car 2 are identical in everyway, except Car 1 costs £10k more than Car 2, but it will cost you 50% less to fix should it go wrong. Both cars have full normal warantees of 3 years and 100kmiles.
As a NEW car buyer, which would you choose??
Max_Torque said:
Ok, then, here's a simple question for you:
You are buying a new car, you have a choice:
Car 1 and Car 2 are identical in everyway, except Car 1 costs £10k more than Car 2, but it will cost you 50% less to fix should it go wrong. Both cars have full normal warantees of 3 years and 100kmiles.
As a NEW car buyer, which would you choose??
If I was a typical "keep it for three years then ditch it" sort of new buyer, I'd buy the cheaper one which is why I said manufacturers are entirely right to be doing what they're doing. This is why the roads are full of BMWs rather than Toyotas. You are buying a new car, you have a choice:
Car 1 and Car 2 are identical in everyway, except Car 1 costs £10k more than Car 2, but it will cost you 50% less to fix should it go wrong. Both cars have full normal warantees of 3 years and 100kmiles.
As a NEW car buyer, which would you choose??
Cutting corners in areas that most of your customers wont care about is just part of being a successful engineering company.
Edited by kambites on Friday 17th July 11:56
kambites said:
And why not? As far as I can see LED taillights serve no significant purpose; they are, however, a very clear say of shouting "I have a post-LCI model!".
They reach full illumination a fraction of a second quicker than incandescent globes. Funny thing, I remember the big thing with those red glowing instrument lights they used to have was that the eye was able to focus quicker and the brain recognise quicker on that red glow. Room for updates and glitz now rules the roost at BMW 
rallycross said:
They have lost the plot with model numbers.
Ha ha, they sure have. It is like they use the last two digits as some type of indication of performance. MB do it too. I do prefer it the old way, I have to say. I wouldn't think that a current '315' would be a worse performer than a E46 318. If anything, it would show that the engines are that much more effcient than they used to be!rodericb said:
rallycross said:
They have lost the plot with model numbers.
Ha ha, they sure have. It is like they use the last two digits as some type of indication of performance. MB do it too. I do prefer it the old way, I have to say. I wouldn't think that a current '315' would be a worse performer than a E46 318. If anything, it would show that the engines are that much more effcient than they used to be!E.g. your E46 318 example had either a 1.9 or 2.0 engine, depending on year.
RobM77 said:
No surprises there with the steering then! Any steering I've ever tried that's "variable" in some way has been utterly dreadful. It's not even an option on modern Porsches, you have to have it 
(ETA: I realise Porsche's system is mechanical, but it's still awful).
Power Steering Plus is optional on the current 911 and the steering is electrical not mechanical (ETA: I realise Porsche's system is mechanical, but it's still awful).Edited by RobM77 on Friday 17th July 09:22
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