RE: Tesla 'Ludicrous Mode' introduced
Discussion
98elise said:
Not according to their website. The basic price is from 50k to 80k depending on the drivetrain and battery options.
Only going by what was said in the Clip take another look Tesla Model S P85D 85k starting pricehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x1nOLAdEtk
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I have only charged away from home a couple of times, once was my aunt and she is completely non-technical and didn't have a clue how much it cost. I don't think the Leaf has a charge consumption meter so I over-estimated at a couple of quid which she refused, obviously I insisted and pointed out that nobody would dream of asking for petrol money to get home!edit: I got the Leaf 2-3 months ago and have driven my Impreza a handful of times since, all but one of which could have been done in the Leaf, just inconveniently. The one that couldn't COULD have been done but with either a long detour to a rapid charger, or some painful slow charging.
I think what will help is some SPEEDY RELIABLE 24/7 car rental/club setups where you can drop in your electric car and rent a petrol car with no hassle for as long as you need.
Edited by Gareth79 on Thursday 23 July 21:03
I don't see the key fact below. The point that matters is electric motors have 100% torque at zero rpm, so have always been fast off the mark. No cleveler technology required. The "fuse" will be an intelligent fuse that only allows a certain amount of enrgy to be used for a controlled time. So an energy rather than current fuse. This marketing the best feature of electric propulsion, actually quite a nice idea used in hybrid/CORS form, but not for regular driving, so sell the good feature to ru ich folk. It still needs plugging in. Mught be better in the UK where distances are less. It not just the range, its the time to fill up......I predict "Tesla Express" stations where you can swop a battery, a chain acros the USA .
Whose it for? If you are rich you will not drive it far, use a proper car to drive to your off the grid estate - where you also have the Tesla pointless battery on show, charged by and as a reserve to, the much more reliable diesel gene whenever the gene fuel runs out, or charged by even more expensive solar panels when the sun shines (gene much cheaper than solar panels and always avaiable). etc.
When you are rich, you can afford things that are not the most efficient way to do things hence unaffodably expesnive, with what works as fallback, however daft. Like a 918 and a Focus. Think the homes of the Victorian industrialists, one lit by carbon arclamps..... Whitworth?
Nothing wrong with this because it tests stuff out at the expense of the rich, but only what really works economically can reach the mass market, unless the law is exploited to impose on the masses what doesn't work very well for lobbyists profit and benefits the rich by susbidising them at the expense of the masses , to makes all the claimed improvements worse than they were ebefore -in the name of some ideology or other, like wind farms/solar panels/ renewables - and subsidies for electric cars.
This is fun technology for the richer few and niche markets like urban commuters.. Not for the rest of us in the real world of multi use vevicles parked in the street. NOTE the electrical energy is no less emissive overall than petrol and more expensive to generate per Joule, unless the Tesla is charged from an expensive battery charged from expensive solar energy as far as emissions go.. But - storing expesnively generated energy chemically to be regenerated chemically is a massively inefficient and pointless process. In general the most efficient hence least expesnive and emissive per unit energy way to use energy where and when it is generated from primary fuel - petrol, diesel for vehicles, gas, Coal, nuclear on the grid - on demand. Not store pure energy. Daft where not required.
Why cars only have a battery to start them, then go onto the alternator. Aircraft more so because of the weight of the starting technology they don'twant to take off the ground, no problem to generate all the enrgy they need once the flight engines are burning fuel directly. etc
While we have petrol and diesel electric cars are not a mass market solution. When we are out of gas, then we will need to use this tech in cities for sure, charged by nuclear energy, no "renewable" Not enough enrgy overall in the sour agrarian energy sources. We will never be out of gas, except that will be become the luxury fuel, when we have to synthesis it from CO2 and Water vapour (or coal we are no onger burning?). I have done the costing of this. it will follow.
Whose it for? If you are rich you will not drive it far, use a proper car to drive to your off the grid estate - where you also have the Tesla pointless battery on show, charged by and as a reserve to, the much more reliable diesel gene whenever the gene fuel runs out, or charged by even more expensive solar panels when the sun shines (gene much cheaper than solar panels and always avaiable). etc.
When you are rich, you can afford things that are not the most efficient way to do things hence unaffodably expesnive, with what works as fallback, however daft. Like a 918 and a Focus. Think the homes of the Victorian industrialists, one lit by carbon arclamps..... Whitworth?
Nothing wrong with this because it tests stuff out at the expense of the rich, but only what really works economically can reach the mass market, unless the law is exploited to impose on the masses what doesn't work very well for lobbyists profit and benefits the rich by susbidising them at the expense of the masses , to makes all the claimed improvements worse than they were ebefore -in the name of some ideology or other, like wind farms/solar panels/ renewables - and subsidies for electric cars.
This is fun technology for the richer few and niche markets like urban commuters.. Not for the rest of us in the real world of multi use vevicles parked in the street. NOTE the electrical energy is no less emissive overall than petrol and more expensive to generate per Joule, unless the Tesla is charged from an expensive battery charged from expensive solar energy as far as emissions go.. But - storing expesnively generated energy chemically to be regenerated chemically is a massively inefficient and pointless process. In general the most efficient hence least expesnive and emissive per unit energy way to use energy where and when it is generated from primary fuel - petrol, diesel for vehicles, gas, Coal, nuclear on the grid - on demand. Not store pure energy. Daft where not required.
Why cars only have a battery to start them, then go onto the alternator. Aircraft more so because of the weight of the starting technology they don'twant to take off the ground, no problem to generate all the enrgy they need once the flight engines are burning fuel directly. etc
While we have petrol and diesel electric cars are not a mass market solution. When we are out of gas, then we will need to use this tech in cities for sure, charged by nuclear energy, no "renewable" Not enough enrgy overall in the sour agrarian energy sources. We will never be out of gas, except that will be become the luxury fuel, when we have to synthesis it from CO2 and Water vapour (or coal we are no onger burning?). I have done the costing of this. it will follow.
I case anyone cares about fuel cost for the test of us...
I offer some answers re petrol, not the sums for the hard of time/science/attention. These results are expressed as the directly comparable costs of delivering energy to the vehicle's transmission using retail prices, not the inpu cost of input enrgy before losses. UK pr pence.
1) Powering a Vehicle Directly with Electricity = 30p/kWh (no tax)
2) Current Petrol Cost = 19p/kWh before tax (45p/kWh after tax @ £1.30/l)
3) Powering a vehicle with synthetic petrol manufactured using the same Electricity as (1) = 135p/kWh (no tax)
Conclusions: Whilst synthetic fuel is a doable and useful solution where significant journeys away from electrical power sources/off grid are necessary - farm and military vehicles, etc., electric cars appear long term winners for local use (at any electrical energy price). Anyone requiring the most cost effective flexibility needs a directly chargeable hybrid.
nb: Lugging an unfuelled and unused petrol engine around in cities is as inefficient as lugging massive batteries around on the highway with their pathetically low energy capacity per kg. If you accelarate and brake, as in UK, where weight matters (NOT if you long haul on an Interstate in USA.. See diag.
I offer some answers re petrol, not the sums for the hard of time/science/attention. These results are expressed as the directly comparable costs of delivering energy to the vehicle's transmission using retail prices, not the inpu cost of input enrgy before losses. UK pr pence.
1) Powering a Vehicle Directly with Electricity = 30p/kWh (no tax)
2) Current Petrol Cost = 19p/kWh before tax (45p/kWh after tax @ £1.30/l)
3) Powering a vehicle with synthetic petrol manufactured using the same Electricity as (1) = 135p/kWh (no tax)
Conclusions: Whilst synthetic fuel is a doable and useful solution where significant journeys away from electrical power sources/off grid are necessary - farm and military vehicles, etc., electric cars appear long term winners for local use (at any electrical energy price). Anyone requiring the most cost effective flexibility needs a directly chargeable hybrid.
nb: Lugging an unfuelled and unused petrol engine around in cities is as inefficient as lugging massive batteries around on the highway with their pathetically low energy capacity per kg. If you accelarate and brake, as in UK, where weight matters (NOT if you long haul on an Interstate in USA.. See diag.
cattman said:
I case anyone cares about fuel cost for the test of us...
I offer some answers re petrol, not the sums for the hard of time/science/attention. These results are expressed as the directly comparable costs of delivering energy to the vehicle's transmission using retail prices, not the inpu cost of input enrgy before losses. UK pr pence.
1) Powering a Vehicle Directly with Electricity = 30p/kWh (no tax)
2) Current Petrol Cost = 19p/kWh before tax (45p/kWh after tax @ £1.30/l)
3) Powering a vehicle with synthetic petrol manufactured using the same Electricity as (1) = 135p/kWh (no tax)
Conclusions: Whilst synthetic fuel is a doable and useful solution where significant journeys away from electrical power sources/off grid are necessary - farm and military vehicles, etc., electric cars appear long term winners for local use (at any electrical energy price). Anyone requiring the most cost effective flexibility needs a directly chargeable hybrid.
nb: Lugging an unfuelled and unused petrol engine around in cities is as inefficient as lugging massive batteries around on the highway with their pathetically low energy capacity per kg. If you accelarate and brake, as in UK, where weight matters (NOT if you long haul on an Interstate in USA.. See diag.
I offer some answers re petrol, not the sums for the hard of time/science/attention. These results are expressed as the directly comparable costs of delivering energy to the vehicle's transmission using retail prices, not the inpu cost of input enrgy before losses. UK pr pence.
1) Powering a Vehicle Directly with Electricity = 30p/kWh (no tax)
2) Current Petrol Cost = 19p/kWh before tax (45p/kWh after tax @ £1.30/l)
3) Powering a vehicle with synthetic petrol manufactured using the same Electricity as (1) = 135p/kWh (no tax)
Conclusions: Whilst synthetic fuel is a doable and useful solution where significant journeys away from electrical power sources/off grid are necessary - farm and military vehicles, etc., electric cars appear long term winners for local use (at any electrical energy price). Anyone requiring the most cost effective flexibility needs a directly chargeable hybrid.
nb: Lugging an unfuelled and unused petrol engine around in cities is as inefficient as lugging massive batteries around on the highway with their pathetically low energy capacity per kg. If you accelarate and brake, as in UK, where weight matters (NOT if you long haul on an Interstate in USA.. See diag.
You seem to have made some errors with your pricing assumptions, numbers and units ..
(1) If you have an EV chances are you top it up at night using cheap rate electricity. Typically night rates are around 6p / kWh, rising to 16p / kWh during day. I average 40 miles a day, so it typically costs around 72p to replace 12kWh used to drive the EV that day. Cost per mile works out at approx 1.8p / mile despite the prodigious performance.
(2) Petrol is currently around 117p / L, or £5.32 a gallon. The energy content of a UK gallon is 40kwh, so the cost per kWh is approx 13.3p / kWh. The "average" car does 34mpg, so cost per mile is around 16p / mile.
Another way of looking at 'cost to run' it is that for the price of a gallon of petrol, an EV might do nearly 300 miles for the same outlay .. (if charged at night rates. If using day time leccy it would be 110 miles) .
I used to spend around £7,500 a year on petrol doing 25k miles. That has now dropped to around £400 or so, in a car thats considerably better/faster/more reliable etc etc. A saving like that is significant and works out at £600 a month, which is almost enough to pay the monthly finance on the EV just through petrol savings !
Carparticus said:
... If you have an EV chances are you top it up at night using cheap rate electricity...
OOI do you have to make an arrangement with your electricity supplier to get cheap rate electricity? I seem to remember people with storage radiators had to have a special timer and meter to get Economy 7 rate (yes that was years ago). RichB said:
OOI do you have to make an arrangement with your electricity supplier to get cheap rate electricity? I seem to remember people with storage radiators had to have a special timer and meter to get Economy 7 rate (yes that was years ago).
Yes, you need a special tariff like Economy Seven. kambites said:
The thing missing from the calculation is that EVs are something like 80% efficient plug to wheels; ICE powered cars are lucky to average 20% efficiency in mixed driving.
Of course EVs can also regeneratively brake.
I think that's what he was getting at when he mentioned that EV's were superior in cities and IC's for long haul journeys.Of course EVs can also regeneratively brake.
Edited by kambites on Saturday 25th July 16:47
glazbagun said:
I think that's what he was getting at when he mentioned that EV's were superior in cities and IC's for long haul journeys.
But even on a long motorway trip, an ICE powered car will at best be about 35% efficient. The theoretical maximum efficiency of a basic steel (aluminium very similar) heat engine is only about 40% and that's only achievable at wide open throttle, which very few cars cruise at. Turbos increase that but only marginally in practice; even the most efficient of internal combustion engines (which I believe are probably F1 engines?) peak at about 50% efficiency. And of course all of that is ignoring the energy you lose the gearbox and diff. I doubt there's a purely ICE powered car on the market which can cruise at 70mph on the motorway at more than 30% efficiency. I suppose a ceramic engine could theoretically be much more efficient, but I'd guess the engineering complexity and hence cost would be prohibitive.
Edited by kambites on Saturday 25th July 17:44
RichB said:
Carparticus said:
... If you have an EV chances are you top it up at night using cheap rate electricity...
OOI do you have to make an arrangement with your electricity supplier to get cheap rate electricity? I seem to remember people with storage radiators had to have a special timer and meter to get Economy 7 rate (yes that was years ago). Alternatively, any user can switch supplier to one who offers various 'off-peak' contracts that simply charge you for "time-of-use" and this is a paperwork exercise. These schemes vary but one example would be 12pm-3pm, 5-7pm, 12am-5am etc.
Neither is difficult to sort out and can significantly reduce electricity bills, especially when so many household electrical devices can be preset to come on at night (tumble driers, washing machines, water heating, pool heaters, electric cars . . ).
cattman said:
Nothing wrong with this because it tests stuff out at the expense of the rich, but only what really works economically can reach the mass market, unless the law is exploited to impose on the masses what doesn't work very well for lobbyists profit and benefits the rich by susbidising them at the expense of the masses , to makes all the claimed improvements worse than they were ebefore -in the name of some ideology or other, like wind farms/solar panels/ renewables - and subsidies for electric cars.
Ofcourse oil/gas energy generation is NEVER subsided 
http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/wp/2015/wp1510...
....incidentally my spelling/grammar isn't great, but that's because English isn't my native language.
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