Road rage; is it getting worse?
Discussion
My own personal theory about the prevalence of tailgating is that it is actually just shoaling.
They're not trying to speed you up, they just get within a certain distance of the car in front and sit there. I've tested it out by accelerating fairly hard up to 30mph, they drift up to 35 until they're close behind you and then just sit there.
They're habitual speeders and don't maintain safe distances, but they're not trying to hurry you up particularly, they just have to be close to the car in front.
They're not trying to speed you up, they just get within a certain distance of the car in front and sit there. I've tested it out by accelerating fairly hard up to 30mph, they drift up to 35 until they're close behind you and then just sit there.
They're habitual speeders and don't maintain safe distances, but they're not trying to hurry you up particularly, they just have to be close to the car in front.
SuperHangOn said:
Roads are becoming more and more congested, driving standards and courtesy are getting worse. More than a bit Victor Meldrew but that's the case.
It's the same story on public transport with the trains getting more crowded and more barging/pushing/general rudeness than ever before.
It's time for road pricing. There can be no argument against it now.It's the same story on public transport with the trains getting more crowded and more barging/pushing/general rudeness than ever before.
The anger is primarily caused by too many vehicles trying to occupy too little space. So road pricing is needed to moderate and spread demand.
Swanny87 said:
The moment I started driving defensively was the moment I noticed less road rage. Funny that...
Expect everyone on the road to be an absolute divvy.
Well said Mr Swanny, fully agree. Also, these days, when I drive into work, I try to do at least one "nice" thing each time towards a fellow road user. You know, let someone out of a junction - that sort of thing. It's surprising how being nice makes me feel happier. I suspect the road ragers have never experienced this feeling. Their loss.Expect everyone on the road to be an absolute divvy.
Sorry if this sounds soppy, not very PH!!
Mike.
I must admit my tolerance of other road users is getting pretty low.
There seems to be so many ditherers, slow drivers and people incapable of overtaking bloody cyclists these days
Driving is a huge chore. There is nothing pleasurable in it any more. Thank god I've got a motorcycle to make it all better!!
There seems to be so many ditherers, slow drivers and people incapable of overtaking bloody cyclists these days
Driving is a huge chore. There is nothing pleasurable in it any more. Thank god I've got a motorcycle to make it all better!!
One of the main reasons I was desperate to get a job closer to home was due to congestion and driver attitudes. I was getting very stressed on the roads and the fact I was on them for 2-3hours a day compounded things.
I now have a commute which takes between 15-20mins each way, there are still idiots about but by god I'm so unbothered by them now.
As someone said earlier in this thread, what doesn't help is that people don't apologise for their f
k ups - accidental or otherwise.
I now have a commute which takes between 15-20mins each way, there are still idiots about but by god I'm so unbothered by them now.
As someone said earlier in this thread, what doesn't help is that people don't apologise for their f
k ups - accidental or otherwise.Brave Fart said:
Well said Mr Swanny, fully agree. Also, these days, when I drive into work, I try to do at least one "nice" thing each time towards a fellow road user. You know, let someone out of a junction - that sort of thing. It's surprising how being nice makes me feel happier. I suspect the road ragers have never experienced this feeling. Their loss.
Sorry if this sounds soppy, not very PH!!
Mike.
I always do this. Especially when crawling along a queue with cars wishing to join from side roads, unless they're the type that just pull half-out and expect people to yield to them, I'll always flash at least one vehicle out of a junction.Sorry if this sounds soppy, not very PH!!
Mike.
What I find too, is that often that car will then flash somebody out at the next junction, so it's a sort of trickle down effect.
Something I'll also add. Past month or two I've been getting to work later due to reasons. And because of this, the 'rush' mentality sets in, I end up speeding up the motorway, and in turn getting irate at people not indicating, cutting up, tailgating etc.
What I've started doing is just driving slower and calmer. On my way home too, the motorway's clearer so I tended to speed up a bit as I was eager to get home. But now I just set my cruise control at 67, pass any slow vehicles when I need to, and just listen to some music.
Doing this I've actually just shrugged off tailgaters and smirked at people driving 'at' each other in the faster moving lanes.
I just find that slowing down a little, being a bit more relaxed and like others have said expecting everyone else to be an idiot, helps me just get on with my drive and not get irritated or worked up by other people.
ETA: This was because I realised - a lot of the time, someone will do something stupid, selfish, dangerous etc. and it would wind me up. I'd then arrive at work in the morning, or at home in the evening, in a s
t mood. I then thought hang on - that idiot is probably either so careless and unaware that they wouldn't even think twice about what they'd done to me, so why am I letting it affect any more of my life than it needs to?Edited by smithyithy on Thursday 23 July 12:50
I can remember driving at 40mph on a 40mph road and a Chrysler Voyager overtook blowing the horn and gave a middle finger.. WTF
I also remember one time last year doing 30mph on a 30mph road and a car behind me started flashing their lights.
I was talking to a young 19\20 year old lad at work recently who came out with the most bizarre statement I've heard for a long time. He said he drives at 40mph in a 30mph zone as he knows the Police will never stop him for it. Maybe he was the person who flashed me for doing 30mph..
The worst thing I've seen on the road recently though was one day last week. I was driving along a 30mph road, car in front was doing the same speed but there was a young child probably about six years old standing up in the back holding on to the back of the two front seats. You can imagine what would happen if the driver had to do an emergency stop.
People like that make me sick
I also remember one time last year doing 30mph on a 30mph road and a car behind me started flashing their lights.
I was talking to a young 19\20 year old lad at work recently who came out with the most bizarre statement I've heard for a long time. He said he drives at 40mph in a 30mph zone as he knows the Police will never stop him for it. Maybe he was the person who flashed me for doing 30mph..
The worst thing I've seen on the road recently though was one day last week. I was driving along a 30mph road, car in front was doing the same speed but there was a young child probably about six years old standing up in the back holding on to the back of the two front seats. You can imagine what would happen if the driver had to do an emergency stop.
People like that make me sick
LudaMusser said:
... most bizarre statement I've heard for a long time. He said he drives at 40mph in a 30mph zone as he knows the Police will never stop him for it.
But don't they set the speed limits at 30 knowing that most people will drive at 40 and that is the real objective. 20 mph limits are to encourage drivers to stick to the 'real' 30 limit 
To all those bemoaning the parking around nurseries: I must be lucky because I have absolutely none of these issues when I do the drop-off or pick-up. Yes, sometimes the parking isn't as tight as it might be, but it's only for 10 mins max anyway. Never seen anything dangerous though.
The local primary schools are a different matter. Some shocking manoeuvring for a start. And then the parents who just launch into the road to cross with their kids without even looking to see if anyone's coming. I've practically had to emergency stop before now.
On the topic of learners, what do people think of the Japanese approach where you had to take an introductory course on a dedicated private facility before you can get on the public roads - exactly like for motorbikes here? (And this in a country with very little space) They also have motorway simulators - for the test I think. My wife actually crashed during her simulation!
The local primary schools are a different matter. Some shocking manoeuvring for a start. And then the parents who just launch into the road to cross with their kids without even looking to see if anyone's coming. I've practically had to emergency stop before now.
On the topic of learners, what do people think of the Japanese approach where you had to take an introductory course on a dedicated private facility before you can get on the public roads - exactly like for motorbikes here? (And this in a country with very little space) They also have motorway simulators - for the test I think. My wife actually crashed during her simulation!
Toaster Pilot said:
Mercury00 said:
I worked night shift for years and never had to drive amongst the commoners, but last year I went back onto day shift and now have to endure rush hour traffic every day. It's terrifying. Everyone just seems to think they are the most important person on the road and shouldn't have to wait for anyone else.
Must say I do miss the nightshift commute - apart from being knackered in the morning!I hope I never have another job where I'm forced to use the roads at the busiest times (for no real reason in many jobs).
All that jazz said:
In a lot of cases I don't think that a driving instructors' idea of "ready for the road" is the same as other folks. I regularly come up against learners dawdling along a busy 30mph road at 15-20 mph with the driver looking petrified. There is just too much traffic these days to have them bumbling along at half the speed limit on main roads. Instructors should keep them on quiet residential side roads until they can drive confidently at the speed limit and also maintain it.
I kind of agree - I'm seeing some what are very obviously total novice drivers out in very heavy rush-hour traffic, chaos behind them. If they can't drive even half competently they really should be on quieter roads/times until they're a bit more able to cope with the flow.On the other hand I live near one of these quiet residential areas where there are always a handful of learners doing 3 point turns, hill stops and 3 pointers. After a few years, 30 in my case, you get a bit tired of it and (unless it's a 3 pointer) nowadays I simply don't stop. I don't go razzing past, I give them a wide berth and make my moves clear but I'm don't stop anymore.
In heavy traffic, especially the motorway, I just find the thing to do is to make space for myself and just to regard all the other vehicles as driverless moving objects; might sound odd but it helps me remove any irritation with a driver and stop assuming that said person is an idiot or whatever.
Edited by Dog Star on Thursday 23 July 13:47
Bluebarge said:
Mandalore said:
Road Rage:
Road rage is never random.
But it's never justified, either.Road rage is never random.
Beating somebody else until their ears bleed, in a civilised society isn't.
We are not all Vulcans and devoid of any emotion (even pity) after all?
Edited by Mandalore on Thursday 23 July 13:50
All that jazz said:
Kentish said:
Stuff
In a lot of cases I don't think that a driving instructors' idea of "ready for the road" is the same as other folks. I regularly come up against learners dawdling along a busy 30mph road at 15-20 mph with the driver looking petrified. There is just too much traffic these days to have them bumbling along at half the speed limit on main roads. Instructors should keep them on quiet residential side roads until they can drive confidently at the speed limit and also maintain it.This is just what Joe Public appear to think.
That all driving instructors just send the pupil out to drive on busy main roads without giving them any coaching; just sitting back watching them and critiquing what they are doing.
This couldn't be further from the truth; we carefully select the quietest of back roads as nursery roads (this annoys residents of course; can't win). We then venture out onto main roads when they are competent with steering, clutch, brakes, accelerator, observations, control of the car and accurate placement of the car. In other words, we develop their psycho-motor skills to a point where they can concentrate more on the road situation than controlling the car, so that car control is extinctive rather than tentative whilst they go through a thought process for what they are doing.
Unfortunately, I certainly don't have any quiet back roads where the local council have inversted money in building mutliple lane roads and large roundabouts with multiple exits. So until our local council invest tax payers money in building features of large roads into back roads we have to venture out to main roads to find them. All lessons are carefully planned including routes which depend on the time of day.
However, do you think it is in a learners interest and the interest of the general public to not expose learners or upset people who have full licences by restricting the learner to roads without anyone on them. Letting them get used to traffic, awkward busy junctions on their own when they go solo after they pass their test or do you think it is best done under the guidance of a very experienced fully qualified driving standards agency approved instructor?
hora said:
johnS2000 said:
I haven't read all posts but I too used to be a driving instructor albeit some years ago now as I'm now retired and can sympathise wit the OP.
I do drive an S2000 mostly now and don't really bother with the minor points of driving strictly to the highway code and can push the limits of "making progress" to the extreme shall we say .
However , my wife , due to the mileage she does in the course of her work ,has a diesel ,and ,When I drive it ,I do like to drive it as if I'm on a test !!
I.E. properly !
Not speeding (and I mean on the in car speedo so less than GPS speed ie properly ) Taking left and right turn's at a very appropriate speed ,stopping at amber lights ,negotiating roundabouts in the proper lane and using the proper signals etc etc really really winds people up !!!
And the worse part ???
I absolutely love it .
Thats called smooth driving. The same can be done quicker with the right conditions including the motorway with lift off/coast rather than brake/gas/brake I do drive an S2000 mostly now and don't really bother with the minor points of driving strictly to the highway code and can push the limits of "making progress" to the extreme shall we say .
However , my wife , due to the mileage she does in the course of her work ,has a diesel ,and ,When I drive it ,I do like to drive it as if I'm on a test !!
I.E. properly !
Not speeding (and I mean on the in car speedo so less than GPS speed ie properly ) Taking left and right turn's at a very appropriate speed ,stopping at amber lights ,negotiating roundabouts in the proper lane and using the proper signals etc etc really really winds people up !!!
And the worse part ???
I absolutely love it .
It's safer, it's much kinder to the car, it's much more comfortable for passengers.
Lots of really good comments on this thread.
Training on a mock up of roads with real life urban features is a great idea but sadly I don't know of anywhere like that at all and I couldn't expect pupils to drive a few hours for a lesson and they certainly wouldn't want to pay for the time it would take to drive to one miles away. We'd effectively be training people at cost or even a loss.
We do driving taster sessions for 16 year olds (and younger) in fields but it's nothing like driving on a road, we rarely get out of 1st gear as it's too bumpy to go at any speed.
Kentish said:
However, do you think it is in a learners interest and the interest of the general public to not expose learners or upset people who have full licences by restricting the learner to roads without anyone on them. Letting them get used to traffic, awkward busy junctions on their own when they go solo after they pass their test or do you think it is best done under the guidance of a very experienced fully qualified driving standards agency approved instructor?
Nobody has said that, but they certainly need to be confident in the basic control of the vehicle and I've personally seen enough learners with, seemingly, the spatial awareness and confidence of a sponge, to know that not ALL instructors DO have a good idea of when their pupil is ready to be unleashed on the rest of us.Personally, I make a point of never lining up behind a learner because you just know that even if they manage to make a decent getaway at the lights, they'll hold you up sooner or later.
Edited by Centurion07 on Thursday 23 July 15:55
Ahimoth said:
My own personal theory about the prevalence of tailgating is that it is actually just shoaling.
They're not trying to speed you up, they just get within a certain distance of the car in front and sit there. I've tested it out by accelerating fairly hard up to 30mph, they drift up to 35 until they're close behind you and then just sit there.
They're habitual speeders and don't maintain safe distances, but they're not trying to hurry you up particularly, they just have to be close to the car in front.
I was on the M2 at the beginning of the week and a Vx Corsa (DU15 WMM; I think was the reg) was weaving and driving over the separation lane markings and then I noticed that he was driving half a car length from the car in-front of him at 70+ mph. I could see that it was only that distance because I decided to pass & get ahead of him in case the car in front of him braked for any reason. It was absolute lunacy!They're not trying to speed you up, they just get within a certain distance of the car in front and sit there. I've tested it out by accelerating fairly hard up to 30mph, they drift up to 35 until they're close behind you and then just sit there.
They're habitual speeders and don't maintain safe distances, but they're not trying to hurry you up particularly, they just have to be close to the car in front.
He then appeared in my RVM about a car length or less behind me at 70mph; I lifted off so that he'd pass but he stayed put for a mile or two at roughly one car length or less distance behind me.
His wife in the passenger seat appeared completely at ease; as a passenger, I'd have been s
tting myself!I wish I'd been in my instructor car as it has front and rear cameras.
It was the worst tailgating I have ever seen.
Kentish said:
Training on a mock up of roads with real life urban features is a great idea but sadly I don't know of anywhere like that at all and I couldn't expect pupils to drive a few hours for a lesson and they certainly wouldn't want to pay for the time it would take to drive to one miles away. We'd effectively be training people at cost or even a loss.
Understood, economics clearly has to play a part, but then as I described it in my earlier post regarding the marked-up disused airfield, it was for 16-year olds and I suspect that the company got a lot of repeat business on the open road when these customers turned 17, after all they had become familiar with the cars they were driving on the airfield and (hopefully) had confidence in their instructor by then. For my part I kept on with the same company and they got me through the test acceptably quickly after my 17th.turbobloke said:
Kentish said:
Training on a mock up of roads with real life urban features is a great idea but sadly I don't know of anywhere like that at all and I couldn't expect pupils to drive a few hours for a lesson and they certainly wouldn't want to pay for the time it would take to drive to one miles away. We'd effectively be training people at cost or even a loss.
Understood, economics clearly has to play a part, but then as I described it in my earlier post regarding the marked-up disused airfield, it was for 16-year olds and I suspect that the company got a lot of repeat business on the open road when these customers turned 17, after all they had become familiar with the cars they were driving on the airfield and (hopefully) had confidence in their instructor by then. For my part I kept on with the same company and they got me through the test acceptably quickly after my 17th.We had a bit of a situation earlier today.
Pupil with 10 hours under his belt; drives well and doesn't hesitate or hold anyone up.
We had our first go at dual carriageways and overtaking.
We are on the DC going around a very shallow long bend to the left.
We identify that we need to pass a lorry ahead.
We check the mirrors, the blindspot to the right and signal out and then move.
There was nothing at all within sight behind when we checked.
We are now out there and getting back up to 70 as our speed had dropped a little during mirror checks (new sensation looking away from the road at 70mph for the pupil so it's only to be expected).
We notice a Citroen C1 (sporty version) approaching really fast behind, he doesn't slow until his is almost a car length or less behind and he starts flashing his lights.
We are alongside the HGV.
So do I ask the pupil to floor it and pull back in?
That would be illegal and also when it comes to test I don't want the pupils telling examiners that their instructor told them to do 90 to get out of an impatient drivers way.
Technically; when being tailgated we teach that the pupil should slow down so that they can slow to a stop rather than braking firmly and getting rear ended.
If we do that though we would have to drop our speed a lot and drop back in when the HGV got 2 secs ahead.
Is the heavy footed citroen driver going to respond well to that?
Probably not, so we kept it at 70mph in the outer lane until we were 2 secs ahead of the lorry and then pulled in hoping that Mr Citroen would back off a few feet but he didn't of course. He just got more angry. He did drop back a little but probably because he noticed my bright yellow CCTV stickers.
I don't think he was rushing to attend the birth of his new born son or something as he was quite happy to pootle along a couple of miles further ahead.
Another incident earlier.
Obstruction on opposite side of road, learner coming towards us uses the holdback position (out and a car length or so back from obstruction), they even had their signal on. So I wave and we continue with priority being ours (the correct way). The car behind the learner coming towards who held back for us overtakes the other learner and meets us head on. We have to stop abruptly and reverse a little and so does the car following us.
This kind of thing happens all the time.
Roundabouts is another where you'll find some plank trying to drive up the inside of us as we exit the roundabout because our position is perhaps 12" off because it's the 1st time the pupil has negotiated a big and busy roundabout.
Personally, the last place I'd want to be is trying to squeeze by the inside of a learner car who is signalling left at their exit. That is asking to be side swiped!
My favourite last week was the bellend in a Picanto who overtook us at speed just as we were turning right into a side road. That could have been an awful mess had I not spotted them speed up and pull out. When we checked mirrors on approach they had just been coming up the road behind us, it was literally as we were turning into the new road.
TBH it is the other way around these days, I am coaching my learner and advising them to cut the FLH some slack.
Making excuses for their foolish behaviour; telling pupils not to get rattled and reminding them of the Kenneth Noye incident.
I make every example of poor driving a teaching point; sadly I have a lot of examples to use!
I really do appreciate the comments from the majority here about cutting a learner some slack; it would be great if the majority of people thought that way.
Pupil with 10 hours under his belt; drives well and doesn't hesitate or hold anyone up.
We had our first go at dual carriageways and overtaking.
We are on the DC going around a very shallow long bend to the left.
We identify that we need to pass a lorry ahead.
We check the mirrors, the blindspot to the right and signal out and then move.
There was nothing at all within sight behind when we checked.
We are now out there and getting back up to 70 as our speed had dropped a little during mirror checks (new sensation looking away from the road at 70mph for the pupil so it's only to be expected).
We notice a Citroen C1 (sporty version) approaching really fast behind, he doesn't slow until his is almost a car length or less behind and he starts flashing his lights.
We are alongside the HGV.
So do I ask the pupil to floor it and pull back in?
That would be illegal and also when it comes to test I don't want the pupils telling examiners that their instructor told them to do 90 to get out of an impatient drivers way.
Technically; when being tailgated we teach that the pupil should slow down so that they can slow to a stop rather than braking firmly and getting rear ended.
If we do that though we would have to drop our speed a lot and drop back in when the HGV got 2 secs ahead.
Is the heavy footed citroen driver going to respond well to that?
Probably not, so we kept it at 70mph in the outer lane until we were 2 secs ahead of the lorry and then pulled in hoping that Mr Citroen would back off a few feet but he didn't of course. He just got more angry. He did drop back a little but probably because he noticed my bright yellow CCTV stickers.
I don't think he was rushing to attend the birth of his new born son or something as he was quite happy to pootle along a couple of miles further ahead.
Another incident earlier.
Obstruction on opposite side of road, learner coming towards us uses the holdback position (out and a car length or so back from obstruction), they even had their signal on. So I wave and we continue with priority being ours (the correct way). The car behind the learner coming towards who held back for us overtakes the other learner and meets us head on. We have to stop abruptly and reverse a little and so does the car following us.
This kind of thing happens all the time.
Roundabouts is another where you'll find some plank trying to drive up the inside of us as we exit the roundabout because our position is perhaps 12" off because it's the 1st time the pupil has negotiated a big and busy roundabout.
Personally, the last place I'd want to be is trying to squeeze by the inside of a learner car who is signalling left at their exit. That is asking to be side swiped!
My favourite last week was the bellend in a Picanto who overtook us at speed just as we were turning right into a side road. That could have been an awful mess had I not spotted them speed up and pull out. When we checked mirrors on approach they had just been coming up the road behind us, it was literally as we were turning into the new road.
TBH it is the other way around these days, I am coaching my learner and advising them to cut the FLH some slack.
Making excuses for their foolish behaviour; telling pupils not to get rattled and reminding them of the Kenneth Noye incident.
I make every example of poor driving a teaching point; sadly I have a lot of examples to use!
I really do appreciate the comments from the majority here about cutting a learner some slack; it would be great if the majority of people thought that way.
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