Pistonheads vehicles you don't "get"
Discussion
Hungrymc said:
RobM77 said:
This is why I took two test drives - I couldn't quite believe my own conclusions. I had mistakenly thought that the Cayman would give me similar sensations to other sports cars (MR2, MX5 etc), just with more solidity and refinement and more high quality engineering. I wasn't expecting Elise levels of feedback, just some sort of dialogue between the car and me as I drove down a bumpy and twisty B road. The car's technical ability was never in doubt to me, but it just didn't feel alive. A friend of mine hired a 997C2S in Germany for a few days and he came to the same conclusions. The variable ratio steering and throttle lag just added to the disappointment for both of us. It's ok though, I don't mind, it saved me £50k that I've now put into a lovely house instead 
Ahhh I understand now and always good to look after your pennies.Seriously, it's hard to begin to understand a 911 in a few days - as I said earlier, had mine 5 years and I'm still learning about it. A flattering car that's easy to drive at 8 or 9 10ths, very, very demanding when pushing hard. They're not delicate and agile in the same way as an Elise or a caterham (of course). They are much more delicate and communicative than any sports saloon however. They are challenging and demanding with good levels of interaction and good performance.
I'm open to other ways to get my thrills (I'll have an Elise or exige for a spell soon enough - most I've driven have behaviors when your pushing hard that make me wonder if I'll get on with them as a road car - but they're very interesting cars and I will buy one at some point).
Where would you go for a 2+2 that's does the things you're looking for better than a 911? Give me another choice as well as an Evora if possible.
RobM77 said:
This goes back to ORD's point - there don't need to be alternatives to something to criticise or not buy something. If you find yourself in a restaurant with only New World wine and you don't like New World wine, you're not gonna spend £20 on a bottle of something you don't want, you'd order a much cheaper beer or a coke instead or at least I would.
Fair enough. But mine was also a very genuine question, I'm looking for options currently and im finding most quick 2+2s are larger and softer than a 911, or feel much more mainstream and less communicative etc... I guess that's at bit of a thread hijack though.RobM77 said:
This goes back to ORD's point - there don't need to be alternatives to something to criticise or not buy something. If you find yourself in a restaurant with only New World wine and you don't like New World wine, you're not gonna spend £20 on a bottle of something you don't want, you'd order a much cheaper beer or a coke instead or at least I would.
Fair enough. But mine was also a very genuine question, I'm looking for options currently and im finding most quick 2+2s are larger and softer than a 911, or feel much more mainstream and less communicative etc... I guess that's at bit of a thread hijack though.Hungrymc said:
RobM77 said:
This goes back to ORD's point - there don't need to be alternatives to something to criticise or not buy something. If you find yourself in a restaurant with only New World wine and you don't like New World wine, you're not gonna spend £20 on a bottle of something you don't want, you'd order a much cheaper beer or a coke instead or at least I would.
Fair enough. But mine was also a very genuine question, I'm looking for options currently and im finding most quick 2+2s are larger and softer than a 911, or feel much more mainstream and less communicative etc... I guess that's at bit of a thread hijack though.. You're quite right, off the top of my head it's just the Evora and 911, presuming the Maserati GT is too GT like (funny that!). The Evora does drive beautifully and is well worth a look.FastRich said:
How about Aston DB9, Nissan GT-R, Jag XKR (XKR-S for less softness) or BMW M6?
I seem to remember a Top Gear test where the 911 was pitched directly against the M6 (and the Vantage but that's only a 2 not a 2+2). The M6 actually did rather well, bar the Chris Bangle boot!
That's probably the field. And the 911 is head and shoulders above them all. This is why they sell so many!I seem to remember a Top Gear test where the 911 was pitched directly against the M6 (and the Vantage but that's only a 2 not a 2+2). The M6 actually did rather well, bar the Chris Bangle boot!
A friend is lucky enough to own a Boxster Spyder 1st edition from 2012. Bikini roof aside, it is an awesome bit of fast road kit. But in general I'm not a keen Porsche fan and don't 'get' the 911 vibe for the money (its a Beetle 
) although I do like the aesthetic. That said I'm slowly becoming fond of the front engined underdogs (924, 944, 968, 928) and an original 924 Carrera GT would be nice...
Landies...iconic off-road but woeful on road. But most joe public (not farmers etc) buy them because they are style icons. Same for G-Wagons. Really?
Audi/BMW/VW I don't get either. There is a badge snobbery out there which is a 'hats off' to the marketing men and women from the early 80's. They hooked in to a demographic and its stuck. Like Nike shoes or Superdry jackets. There are better products (comfort, performance, reliability) out there but folk want to wear the brand first.
Its got some circles on the front grill. Cool.
But thats the joy of car ownership...if Joe likes his BMW Z4 whilst Bob likes his Mazda MX5 and Sally likes her Audi TT....good luck to them. Buy what you like to your budget and as long as you are smiling, who cares? (apart from the PH forums of course
)
) although I do like the aesthetic. That said I'm slowly becoming fond of the front engined underdogs (924, 944, 968, 928) and an original 924 Carrera GT would be nice...Landies...iconic off-road but woeful on road. But most joe public (not farmers etc) buy them because they are style icons. Same for G-Wagons. Really?
Audi/BMW/VW I don't get either. There is a badge snobbery out there which is a 'hats off' to the marketing men and women from the early 80's. They hooked in to a demographic and its stuck. Like Nike shoes or Superdry jackets. There are better products (comfort, performance, reliability) out there but folk want to wear the brand first.
Its got some circles on the front grill. Cool.
But thats the joy of car ownership...if Joe likes his BMW Z4 whilst Bob likes his Mazda MX5 and Sally likes her Audi TT....good luck to them. Buy what you like to your budget and as long as you are smiling, who cares? (apart from the PH forums of course
)wile7 said:
A friend is lucky enough to own a Boxster Spyder 1st edition from 2012. Bikini roof aside, it is an awesome bit of fast road kit. But in general I'm not a keen Porsche fan and don't 'get' the 911 vibe for the money (its a Beetle ) although I do like the aesthetic. That said I'm slowly becoming fond of the front engined underdogs (924, 944, 968, 928) and an original 924 Carrera GT would be nice...
Landies...iconic off-road but woeful on road. But most joe public (not farmers etc) buy them because they are style icons. Same for G-Wagons. Really?
Audi/BMW/VW I don't get either. There is a badge snobbery out there which is a 'hats off' to the marketing men and women from the early 80's. They hooked in to a demographic and its stuck. Like Nike shoes or Superdry jackets. There are better products (comfort, performance, reliability) out there but folk want to wear the brand first.
Its got some circles on the front grill. Cool.
But thats the joy of car ownership...if Joe likes his BMW Z4 whilst Bob likes his Mazda MX5 and Sally likes her Audi TT....good luck to them. Buy what you like to your budget and as long as you are smiling, who cares? (apart from the PH forums of course )
What's the medium sized saloon that is better than a 3 Series? You can't say the XE unless you have driven one ) although I do like the aesthetic. That said I'm slowly becoming fond of the front engined underdogs (924, 944, 968, 928) and an original 924 Carrera GT would be nice...Landies...iconic off-road but woeful on road. But most joe public (not farmers etc) buy them because they are style icons. Same for G-Wagons. Really?
Audi/BMW/VW I don't get either. There is a badge snobbery out there which is a 'hats off' to the marketing men and women from the early 80's. They hooked in to a demographic and its stuck. Like Nike shoes or Superdry jackets. There are better products (comfort, performance, reliability) out there but folk want to wear the brand first.
Its got some circles on the front grill. Cool.
But thats the joy of car ownership...if Joe likes his BMW Z4 whilst Bob likes his Mazda MX5 and Sally likes her Audi TT....good luck to them. Buy what you like to your budget and as long as you are smiling, who cares? (apart from the PH forums of course
)What's the family hatchback that's better than the Golf? I think the Mazda 3 is about as good, but the VW is obviously a market leader.
ORD said:
What's the medium sized saloon that is better than a 3 Series? You can't say the XE unless you have driven one
What's the family hatchback that's better than the Golf? I think the Mazda 3 is about as good, but the VW is obviously a market leader.
Not driven an XE What's the family hatchback that's better than the Golf? I think the Mazda 3 is about as good, but the VW is obviously a market leader.
but I would have said a few years ago the Lesus IS200. Nowadays I think the latest Skoda Octavia (especially in VRS trim) would get my vote even though its FWD and a VAG group car (and in the UK is often put up against the VW Golf in comparison tests which seems a bit odd).Hatchback - Mazda3 a good call but I'd probably go for the new Peugeot 308.
wile7 said:
Not driven an XE but I would have said a few years ago the Lesus IS200. Nowadays I think the latest Skoda Octavia (especially in VRS trim) would get my vote even though its FWD and a VAG group car (and in the UK is often put up against the VW Golf in comparison tests which seems a bit odd).
Hatchback - Mazda3 a good call but I'd probably go for the new Peugeot 308.
The Octavia is a practical family car, but it isn't anything like competition to the 3er...not if you are a keen driver. but I would have said a few years ago the Lesus IS200. Nowadays I think the latest Skoda Octavia (especially in VRS trim) would get my vote even though its FWD and a VAG group car (and in the UK is often put up against the VW Golf in comparison tests which seems a bit odd).Hatchback - Mazda3 a good call but I'd probably go for the new Peugeot 308.
And a Peugoet? Come on, mate!
ORD said:
wile7 said:
A friend is lucky enough to own a Boxster Spyder 1st edition from 2012. Bikini roof aside, it is an awesome bit of fast road kit. But in general I'm not a keen Porsche fan and don't 'get' the 911 vibe for the money (its a Beetle ) although I do like the aesthetic. That said I'm slowly becoming fond of the front engined underdogs (924, 944, 968, 928) and an original 924 Carrera GT would be nice...
Landies...iconic off-road but woeful on road. But most joe public (not farmers etc) buy them because they are style icons. Same for G-Wagons. Really?
Audi/BMW/VW I don't get either. There is a badge snobbery out there which is a 'hats off' to the marketing men and women from the early 80's. They hooked in to a demographic and its stuck. Like Nike shoes or Superdry jackets. There are better products (comfort, performance, reliability) out there but folk want to wear the brand first.
Its got some circles on the front grill. Cool.
But thats the joy of car ownership...if Joe likes his BMW Z4 whilst Bob likes his Mazda MX5 and Sally likes her Audi TT....good luck to them. Buy what you like to your budget and as long as you are smiling, who cares? (apart from the PH forums of course )
What's the medium sized saloon that is better than a 3 Series? You can't say the XE unless you have driven one ) although I do like the aesthetic. That said I'm slowly becoming fond of the front engined underdogs (924, 944, 968, 928) and an original 924 Carrera GT would be nice...Landies...iconic off-road but woeful on road. But most joe public (not farmers etc) buy them because they are style icons. Same for G-Wagons. Really?
Audi/BMW/VW I don't get either. There is a badge snobbery out there which is a 'hats off' to the marketing men and women from the early 80's. They hooked in to a demographic and its stuck. Like Nike shoes or Superdry jackets. There are better products (comfort, performance, reliability) out there but folk want to wear the brand first.
Its got some circles on the front grill. Cool.
But thats the joy of car ownership...if Joe likes his BMW Z4 whilst Bob likes his Mazda MX5 and Sally likes her Audi TT....good luck to them. Buy what you like to your budget and as long as you are smiling, who cares? (apart from the PH forums of course
)Its certainly doing far better than the X-Type ever did.
cerb4.5lee said:
The 3 series is dead and buried now if you are to believe all the Autocar reviews against the XE...they just cant stop waxing lyrical about it...I cant wait to hear what they will say about it once Jag start putting their own engines in it...the 3 series wont stand a chance.
Its certainly doing far better than the X-Type ever did.
I hope so. It will be great if it is as good as the reviews. But I have a strong suspicion that the press is applying the usual 'It's British so add 1.5 stars' approach that allows the F-Type to be taken seriously. Its certainly doing far better than the X-Type ever did.
ORD said:
cerb4.5lee said:
The 3 series is dead and buried now if you are to believe all the Autocar reviews against the XE...they just cant stop waxing lyrical about it...I cant wait to hear what they will say about it once Jag start putting their own engines in it...the 3 series wont stand a chance.
Its certainly doing far better than the X-Type ever did.
I hope so. It will be great if it is as good as the reviews. But I have a strong suspicion that the press is applying the usual 'It's British so add 1.5 stars' approach that allows the F-Type to be taken seriously. Its certainly doing far better than the X-Type ever did.
kambites said:
ORD said:
The Octavia is a practical family car, but it isn't anything like competition to the 3er...not if you are a keen driver. And a Peugoet? Come on, mate!
I assume he meant the Octavia is a family hatch that's better than the Golf, not that it's better than the 3-series. 
Nope, Octavia better than 3 series. I realize its an oddball choice for many. I had both on hire for a few weeks hire each when we moved to Switzerland with work (1.8 Octavia and 330D BMW) and for quality of cabin, chassis and steering the Octavia was better than the 3 series in every day driving. Sure, hooning in the RWD BMW was a giggle but compared to the older BMW models I have experienced (E21, E30...) it just felt heavy and stodgy compared to the Octavia. I can see why the police have slowly moved from the 3 series to VRS's because I imagine the Octavia VRS is a cracker even with fwd. And cheaper of course which is no bad thing.
Edited by wile7 on Tuesday 4th August 00:43
ORD said:
cerb4.5lee said:
The 3 series is dead and buried now if you are to believe all the Autocar reviews against the XE...they just cant stop waxing lyrical about it...I cant wait to hear what they will say about it once Jag start putting their own engines in it...the 3 series wont stand a chance.
Its certainly doing far better than the X-Type ever did.
I hope so. It will be great if it is as good as the reviews. But I have a strong suspicion that the press is applying the usual 'It's British so add 1.5 stars' approach that allows the F-Type to be taken seriously. Its certainly doing far better than the X-Type ever did.
They're taken seriously because they're really good to drive, look gorgeous and sound fantastic too.
You'd think PHers had to carry their car around in a rucksack they way they prattle on about weight as if it's all that matters in a road car.
Whoever was saying they struggled with their power earlier was talking out his ass too. Too much traction was my niggly gripe with the V8 F-Type, not too little.
jamieduff1981 said:
How many miles have you done in F-Types?
They're taken seriously because they're really good to drive, look gorgeous and sound fantastic too.
You'd think PHers had to carry their car around in a rucksack they way they prattle on about weight as if it's all that matters in a road car.
Whoever was saying they struggled with their power earlier was talking out his ass too. Too much traction was my niggly gripe with the V8 F-Type, not too little.
Don't need to drive one They're taken seriously because they're really good to drive, look gorgeous and sound fantastic too.
You'd think PHers had to carry their car around in a rucksack they way they prattle on about weight as if it's all that matters in a road car.
Whoever was saying they struggled with their power earlier was talking out his ass too. Too much traction was my niggly gripe with the V8 F-Type, not too little.
All the engines other than the V8 are utterly uninspiring. A forced induction V6 at that kinda money?! Not a chance. Apart from the V8, they are also slow for the money. You can also say what you like about not carrying it around, but I doubt I am alone in not wanting a 2-seater that weighs as much as my wife's 3 series touring. That is absurd and truly awful engineering. Porsche would be crucified on here if the new Cayman weighed 1500kg, let alone 1700kg.
I also hate contrived pops and bangs and other exhaust farting, which rules out the F-Type (and the 981 with the sports exhaust).
I also think it's huge and ugly. I would never want a 2-seater any bigger or heavier than the Cayman.
It's too big and heavy for me as it is, so adding 300kg would be insane.
Sometimes just reading the spec sheet and reviews can tell you that you would be wasting a salesman's time doing a test drive.
yonex said:
Nickbrapp said:
4 Doors more w
es
There are no weses. Just a 6 year old who is being taught that a big petrol engine is the right choice and the NissoHondaVolVW miserable diesel option is for people who have made the worst possible choice. Come the big call up I can't imagine the annoyance of having to wonder why I wasted my time driving a s
t car, I don't plan to wonder.I guess we're all different.
jamieduff1981 said:
How many miles have you done in F-Types?
They're taken seriously because they're really good to drive, look gorgeous and sound fantastic too.
You'd think PHers had to carry their car around in a rucksack they way they prattle on about weight as if it's all that matters in a road car.
Whoever was saying they struggled with their power earlier was talking out his ass too. Too much traction was my niggly gripe with the V8 F-Type, not too little.
Do you mean traction or grip? Every review that I have read says it can't put its power down at low speed. I don't doubt that it grips and grips, though - sports cars are massively over-endowed with grip for our roads. They're taken seriously because they're really good to drive, look gorgeous and sound fantastic too.
You'd think PHers had to carry their car around in a rucksack they way they prattle on about weight as if it's all that matters in a road car.
Whoever was saying they struggled with their power earlier was talking out his ass too. Too much traction was my niggly gripe with the V8 F-Type, not too little.
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