2 young guys killed in Austrian Alps racing. Came off a clif

[gazza285]

heebeegeetee said:

gazza285 said:

We have the "Keep in low gear" signs, yet lorries still run out of brakes in this country. I've boiled the brakes in two of my vans and once in my Mk1 Escort, which had uprated ventilated discs and four pot calipers. Non of these were on long Alpine descents.

Hmm, I'm an ex hgv driver and I've not heard of an hgv running out of brakes for a very long time indeed. I also think that if you boil brake fluid in a car in the uk then there's something very wrong indeed. I did once all but set fire to my front brakes on a very long downhill alpine descent on a road rally but still didn't boil the fluid.

In fact total brake failure is very, very rare, but I'd wager it's more likely to happen to modified brakes than standard, I'm afraid.

Short memory heebeegeetee.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bath-lorry-cr...

[gowmonster]

we will never know unless the porsche guy fesses up. and he says they weren't racing.

[delta0]

Normal driving wouldn't result in coming off a cliff.

[TTmonkey]

gowmonster said:

we will never know unless the porsche guy fesses up. and he says they weren't racing.

We might do. As they filmed previous routes like this, to post on YouTube, its probably likely that they were also filming this run (why wouldn't you after all - internet fame as a driving God beckons...)

All they need to do is have a good look for the camera/phone..... somewhere on that mountain.

[DonkeyApple]

hornetrider said:

Does it? Or were they just going back up for another go?

I know when I've been over there on the bike I've gone back for a second crack at the hill. Just for another go like. Obviously the rides were spirited and judging by these guys their driving was spirited too. But it's not necessarily racing.

Racing doesn't need to involve another car. While we all do well to recognise that the DM is a sensationalist, dishonest, manipulative, low rent hate mag for the thick and angry the above poster is arguably correct.

Exceeding the speed limits is illegal and one can have a race with oneself. For example, if I am on a track day or the Ring etc I never race other cars but I am certainly racing against other metrics/benchmarks.

[heebeegeetee]

gazza285 said:

Short memory heebeegeetee.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bath-lorry-cr...

Fair point. Still extremely rare, and IIRC (which I probably don't) the cause hasn't been determined yet, has it?

[aeropilot]

gowmonster said:

we will never know unless the porsche guy fesses up. and he says they weren't racing.

But that's just terminology. To 90% of the people on here we know they weren't 'racing' as such, but 'follow the leader at an inappropriate speed for the road conditions' is a meaningless term to joe public who read the DM and drive a Prious. More than one car driving very fast on a road in close proximity is 'racing' to them and any non-car person writing any article with an agenda to sensationalise.
That's just the way it is.

[DonkeyApple]

[redacted]

[danjama]

No tyre marks

The worrying scenario is he didn't even see the bend, didn't even brake, just tried to turn too late and went straight off at a silly speed.

How bloody scary is that thought?

[Hackney]

hornetrider said:

Hackney said:

It appears from statements that the two cars went back for another run and were racing.

Does it? Or were they just going back up for another go?

I know when I've been over there on the bike I've gone back for a second crack at the hill. Just for another go like. Obviously the rides were spirited and judging by these guys their driving was spirited too. But it's not necessarily racing.

Again, my point is: *if* they were racing, then it was illegal ergo the Mail is right regardless of whether the trip was a "rally" or not.

[JuniorD]

The whole going over a cliff edge freaks me out completely. I had a near miss of that type in Tenerife a few years ago, driving at walking pace through a single lane tunnel filled with fog, with visibility of about 1 metre and with a local on my bumper, urging me on. As the light at the end of the tunnel became noticible and with dhead on my bumper I sped up a little only to suddenly realise that the tunnel opened at a 90 degree right hand bend in the road with a precipice straight ahead. Somehow I managed to skid to a halt just a hair's breadth from the flakey looking armco. Had anyone been coming the way, it would have been interesting.

[fuggled]

JuniorD said:

The whole going over a cliff edge freaks me out completely.

Me too - they fell 60 or so meters before initial impact on the mountain - bad enough if you buy it instantly - but to see yourself hurtling towards the deck with feck all you can do is just bad! I just hope they didn't 'suffer'

[razor04]

Dazzled buy sunlight on the approach seems like a possible factor,

Car hanging it into the bend at full tilt (possible bit of moisture) tyres let go and car went through barrier backwards?

Porsche right up behind and forcing the pace of the Leon?

Boost cut in mid corner (this can happen is often a cause of turbo'd motors losing it when hanging into a bend or corner)
Boost controller and or boost overides fitted to car?
I recall some turbo cars have a 50% or so boost limit in 1st and 2nd to prevent this but can be over-ridden by fitting an aftermarket boost controller / disabling Tsv

Strut Braces / chassis stiffening? i say this because i noticed they can make a car more skittish by stiffening it up, i think cancelling out a car natural body roll and chassis twist with bracing can actually have a more negative effect.

Just possible scenarios not saying any of the above actually happened.

[fuggled]

razor04 said:

Dazzled buy sunlight on the approach seems like a possible factor,

Car hanging it into the bend at full tilt (possible bit of moisture) tyres let go and car went through barrier backwards?

Porsche right up behind and forcing the pace of the Leon?

Boost cut in mid corner (this can happen is often a cause of turbo'd motors losing it when hanging into a bend or corner)
Boost controller and or boost overides fitted to car?
I recall some turbo cars have a 50% or so boost limit in 1st and 2nd to prevent this but can be over-ridden by fitting an aftermarket boost controller / disabling Tsv

Strut Braces / chassis stiffening? i say this because i noticed they can make a car more skittish by stiffening it up, i think cancelling out a car natural body roll and chassis twist with bracing can actually have a more negative effect.

Just possible scenarios not saying any of the above actually happened.

As I suggested previously, given the lack of any skid marks and the position of the sun on the road, with possible speed and lack of knowledge of the road, I'd go for the sunlight option. If you go back 10 mins prior on the webcam, you can see variable sunshine at that point.

[AndyDubbya]

fuggled said:

As I suggested previously, given the lack of any skid marks and the position of the sun on the road, with possible speed and lack of knowledge of the road, I'd go for the sunlight option. If you go back 10 mins prior on the webcam, you can see variable sunshine at that point.

If it happened where I think it did, they were going east to west away from the rising sun.

[Super Slo Mo]

fuggled said:

razor04 said:

Dazzled buy sunlight on the approach seems like a possible factor,

Car hanging it into the bend at full tilt (possible bit of moisture) tyres let go and car went through barrier backwards?

Porsche right up behind and forcing the pace of the Leon?

Boost cut in mid corner (this can happen is often a cause of turbo'd motors losing it when hanging into a bend or corner)
Boost controller and or boost overides fitted to car?
I recall some turbo cars have a 50% or so boost limit in 1st and 2nd to prevent this but can be over-ridden by fitting an aftermarket boost controller / disabling Tsv

Strut Braces / chassis stiffening? i say this because i noticed they can make a car more skittish by stiffening it up, i think cancelling out a car natural body roll and chassis twist with bracing can actually have a more negative effect.

Just possible scenarios not saying any of the above actually happened.

As I suggested previously, given the lack of any skid marks and the position of the sun on the road, with possible speed and lack of knowledge of the road, I'd go for the sunlight option. If you go back 10 mins prior on the webcam, you can see variable sunshine at that point.

I'm not convinced about the sunshine option, simply because they've come from right to left on the camera footage, so the sun is behind them at that point. Later in the footage there's orange paint on the pavements which appears to indicate direction of travel.

I think it's likely to be the simplest of the available scenarios, in the absence of any evidence at all (other than the obvious), and that's just that they overcooked it and ran out of road.

[Ikemi]

I've driven the Stelvio Pass, as well as various other alpine passes ... I can tell you that on some of the roads, which were just wide enough for one car, with a sheer drop and no safety barrier in place, I was doing 5-10mph in the Elise. I posted a picture on FB with the status of "The hills are alive with the sound of my sphincter contracting and relaxing" ... Proper scary stuff. However the closer you get to sea level, with the addition of some Armco, the more confident you become!

I had a couple of moments, whereby the road did a sharp left over a crest, but almost looked as though it should carry on ... but with a drop in place of what I believed to be tarmac. Out of interest, are accidents on such alpine passes rare, or do we not hear about them?

RIP - My thoughts are with the family.

[DonkeyApple]

[redacted]

[paulyv]

Such a serene place but the webcam image is heartbreaking and frankly left me feeling a little ghoulish.

Clearly not everyone feels the same however - nice opportunity to take a quick selfie on a morning jaunt. Strange world we live in.

[S10GTA]

paulyv said:

Such a serene place but the webcam image is heartbreaking and frankly left me feeling a little ghoulish.

Clearly not everyone feels the same however - nice opportunity to take a quick selfie on a morning jaunt. Strange world we live in.

How do you know he's taking a selfie? Maybe he is taking a picture the other way.