2 young guys killed in Austrian Alps racing. Came off a clif
Discussion
It's for sure a very sad event, despite the fact that they might or not have driven in an inappropriate matter.
I'm not shy in admitting that back when I was younger I've probably driven the same way they did... I was just fortunate enough that nothing ever happened.
To tell the full truth, I totally changed my way of driving when my son was born: I was driving on the road from Lantosque to Lucéram on the Riviera when all of a sudden looking to the right I thought "if I do something stupid I won't see my son grow" and that was the last time I drove there... or any other dangerous road.
I was fortunate enough to realize the dangers before doing something stupid, a chance these guys did not have.
As for the causes, I'm pretty sure that the investigation will simply say that the accident was caused by excessive speed.
I've always lived near or in the mountains and sometimes there are conditions that can be very tricky even in perfectly clear and sunny conditions. Especially in the morning it is not unusual to find spots of damp that are nearly as slippey as ice; if you get caught by one of these you're out of control even before realizing what's going on.
To give you an idea of how dangerous these can be, I was going to watch a Stage of the Rally d'Antibes with my wife and we were walking on a stretch of road. When we arrived in a spot under some trees all of a sudden we could barely stand, that's how slippery it was! And this was by temperatures in excess of 25 degrees...
I just hope the families will not have to read all the messages (not here!) of all those judges who think they're better than anyone else.
I'm not shy in admitting that back when I was younger I've probably driven the same way they did... I was just fortunate enough that nothing ever happened.
To tell the full truth, I totally changed my way of driving when my son was born: I was driving on the road from Lantosque to Lucéram on the Riviera when all of a sudden looking to the right I thought "if I do something stupid I won't see my son grow" and that was the last time I drove there... or any other dangerous road.
I was fortunate enough to realize the dangers before doing something stupid, a chance these guys did not have.
As for the causes, I'm pretty sure that the investigation will simply say that the accident was caused by excessive speed.
I've always lived near or in the mountains and sometimes there are conditions that can be very tricky even in perfectly clear and sunny conditions. Especially in the morning it is not unusual to find spots of damp that are nearly as slippey as ice; if you get caught by one of these you're out of control even before realizing what's going on.
To give you an idea of how dangerous these can be, I was going to watch a Stage of the Rally d'Antibes with my wife and we were walking on a stretch of road. When we arrived in a spot under some trees all of a sudden we could barely stand, that's how slippery it was! And this was by temperatures in excess of 25 degrees...
I just hope the families will not have to read all the messages (not here!) of all those judges who think they're better than anyone else.
That bike video shows a stunning drive and I'd be out with the Camera far too often to even want to drive fast.
Anyway the corner uphill unclear of gradient without being there not tryely the angle of the corner but I'd "guess" 60mph would be easy on that corner for any modern Hot Hatch or above.
Given the time of the accident - was it a clear day? What position was the sun is it possible came round the corner and literally blinded by the sun while carrying speed hit the kerb and then it was too late?
Anyway the corner uphill unclear of gradient without being there not tryely the angle of the corner but I'd "guess" 60mph would be easy on that corner for any modern Hot Hatch or above.
Given the time of the accident - was it a clear day? What position was the sun is it possible came round the corner and literally blinded by the sun while carrying speed hit the kerb and then it was too late?
Welshbeef said:
Given the time of the accident - was it a clear day? What position was the sun is it possible came round the corner and literally blinded by the sun while carrying speed hit the kerb and then it was too late?
http://fuschertoerl.panomax.comHave a look for yourself. If you go to archive and start at 7.20 on the 24th you can see two cars going down the snake. Although only speculation the lower one could be the lads before they turned around ?
DonkeyApple said:
hornetrider said:
Does it? Or were they just going back up for another go?
I know when I've been over there on the bike I've gone back for a second crack at the hill. Just for another go like. Obviously the rides were spirited and judging by these guys their driving was spirited too. But it's not necessarily racing.
Racing doesn't need to involve another car. While we all do well to recognise that the DM is a sensationalist, dishonest, manipulative, low rent hate mag for the thick and angry the above poster is arguably correct. I know when I've been over there on the bike I've gone back for a second crack at the hill. Just for another go like. Obviously the rides were spirited and judging by these guys their driving was spirited too. But it's not necessarily racing.
Exceeding the speed limits is illegal and one can have a race with oneself. For example, if I am on a track day or the Ring etc I never race other cars but I am certainly racing against other metrics/benchmarks.
Ghibli said:
http://fuschertoerl.panomax.com
Have a look for yourself. If you go to archive and start at 7.20 on the 24th you can see two cars going down the snake. Although only speculation the lower one could be the lads before they turned around ?
They went off between 7:30 and 7:40 as the barrier is gone at 7:40.Have a look for yourself. If you go to archive and start at 7.20 on the 24th you can see two cars going down the snake. Although only speculation the lower one could be the lads before they turned around ?
Misreading a curve can happen to anyone, even to a very good driver.
Check this Pikes Peak video below (at 3:50), it's properly scary (but with less dramatic consequences).
https://youtu.be/Q6s1nmJDe4Y
Check this Pikes Peak video below (at 3:50), it's properly scary (but with less dramatic consequences).
https://youtu.be/Q6s1nmJDe4Y
6pi said:
Misreading a curve can happen to anyone, even to a very good driver.
Check this Pikes Peak video below (at 3:50), it's properly scary (but with less dramatic consequences).
https://youtu.be/Q6s1nmJDe4Y
This is the thing, some posters go 'ran out of talent', etc, when anyone can make a mistake, doesn’t matter how competent the driver is. In this case he and his mate paid for it with their lives, very sad, but maybe a lesson comes on it and safety is improved.Check this Pikes Peak video below (at 3:50), it's properly scary (but with less dramatic consequences).
https://youtu.be/Q6s1nmJDe4Y
The Spruce goose said:
This is the thing, some posters go 'ran out of talent', etc, when anyone can make a mistake, doesn’t matter how competent the driver is. In this case he and his mate paid for it with their lives, very sad, but maybe a lesson comes on it and safety is improved.
I'm sure most competent drivers wouldn't choose such a road to challenge their talent. There is a time and place for everything, but 100mph on roads like that means one little mistake and you're dead. They shouldn't have put themselves in the position that they could run out of talent.
Too many people think they are invincible in cars. It's never going to be them crashing.
You're never going to make a mountain pass safe, you're also not going to stop someone pushing too hard in the future.
Reading a number of threads on this matter, I'm still reading people convinced they haven't done anything wrong, as if it wasn't really their fault. There's an excuse for everything. They are the ones who'll also try to do 100mph on that road.
It's very sad that two young guys have been killed all the same.
plenty said:
DonkeyApple said:
hornetrider said:
Does it? Or were they just going back up for another go?
I know when I've been over there on the bike I've gone back for a second crack at the hill. Just for another go like. Obviously the rides were spirited and judging by these guys their driving was spirited too. But it's not necessarily racing.
Racing doesn't need to involve another car. While we all do well to recognise that the DM is a sensationalist, dishonest, manipulative, low rent hate mag for the thick and angry the above poster is arguably correct. I know when I've been over there on the bike I've gone back for a second crack at the hill. Just for another go like. Obviously the rides were spirited and judging by these guys their driving was spirited too. But it's not necessarily racing.
Exceeding the speed limits is illegal and one can have a race with oneself. For example, if I am on a track day or the Ring etc I never race other cars but I am certainly racing against other metrics/benchmarks.
Dear god.
Watched the facebook vid and then couldn't help having a morbid gawp at his profile. The trip seems very well documented, and very public. Must be heartbreaking for the families to watch the videos - seeing them having a great time, but talking of the danger. The last post about an hour before their demise talking about filming the next leg etc...
RIP
RIP
Pretty much all of my friends and aquaintances who aren't into cars would describe two young men driving fast in a souped up car "racing" and will have done for years. And that's before you actually take into account that they were driving with another car at some point.
Why do forum threads always descend into some bunch of pricks segueing about the correct definition of a word or phrase? Truly bizarre behaviour.
Regardless, I think when you look at the above photo it's plain to see the corner was unsighted after a long straight, especially if you imagine your eyeline as being only 4 foot from the Tarmac going up the hill. The road obviously goes left, but it's only apparent just how tight it is when you see it from the reverse angle;
you can wonder about car failures or whatever but I'd imagine they just didn't expect the severity of the bend, a fateful error of judgement if you will. I haven't driven this pass yet, but the particular stretch isn't on the route to the summit and car park is it? Meaning if they'd already tried one go up the hill this was quite possibly not done in their first ascent.
Why do forum threads always descend into some bunch of pricks segueing about the correct definition of a word or phrase? Truly bizarre behaviour.
Regardless, I think when you look at the above photo it's plain to see the corner was unsighted after a long straight, especially if you imagine your eyeline as being only 4 foot from the Tarmac going up the hill. The road obviously goes left, but it's only apparent just how tight it is when you see it from the reverse angle;
you can wonder about car failures or whatever but I'd imagine they just didn't expect the severity of the bend, a fateful error of judgement if you will. I haven't driven this pass yet, but the particular stretch isn't on the route to the summit and car park is it? Meaning if they'd already tried one go up the hill this was quite possibly not done in their first ascent.
hornetrider said:
Those pictures above really do show that imo the driver made a catastrophic error of judgement. The road is winding up the side of a mountain and as you say, the bend is unsighted. What would most reasonable drivers do in this situation? Back off - big time.
Agreed.And for anyone else contemplating an Alpine hoon, do so by all means, but, even in summer, you can find road surfaces that have dipped or heaved because of ice damage, gravel and mud on the road washed down by thunderstorms, rockfalls, cyclists, walkers etc, so you do really need to recce your route first (unless you take it easy) and leave a margin of error for the unexpected.
Martin4x4 said:
aeropilot said:
ryanthescot said:
Bonefish Blues said:
Ghibli said:
Obviously I don't know the actual cause of the accident but I do wonder if brake fade could have been a contributing factor on those steep sharp bends ?
If you look at the guy's build thread his brakes were up to the job, IIRC 360mm TTS up front and 300+ at rear.FWIW I'd be massively surprised if that brake setup had a thermal issue going up that pass after going down it safely, even stuck behind traffic. I suspect that the hottest the calipers would have got would have been after they'd sat and soaked at the bottom of the first run. If they'd carried on thrapping the brakes after starting the run with a long pedal then that would be fairly daft. An installation issue would be more likely for example a leaking banjo or incorrect caliper bolt torque.
My guess would be a mechanical failure or simply a loss of control. Some of the steering inputs were very aggressive with some unforgiving lines. With track biased tyres all it would take is getting the fronts hot enough to switch on while the rears were still cold and an input like one of the ones seen would make it swap ends very quickly.
Sad event. Seeing the Facebook account I clicked on the album and watched another blog apparently from Wednesday last week. The two chaps talk of their driving and not 'tagging the footage' so Mum won't see it...the video ends with them commenting 'racing, racing, racing...'.
Make of that what you will. Hard for their families though.
Make of that what you will. Hard for their families though.
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