2 young guys killed in Austrian Alps racing. Came off a clif

[FurtiveFreddy]

JuniorD said:

If those guys had already been up the road once previously, would they not have known that the bend was practically 90degrees and the drop precarious? Granted it might have been shrouded in low cloud.

I think we only know for sure they went down it once previously. They could have started from the top that morning.

[coppice]

Instead of silly amounts of speculation, why not leave it to the coroner to do his job eh ? 32 pages..Jesus

[anonymous-user]

And now we know why the under-25's have such high motor insurance.

[StottyEvo]

I think this story has struck a nerve as a lot of people on this forum can relate, I know I certainly can.

It is a great shame but I'm glad the event is being discussed in such detail as hopefully we will all think a little more whilst on a hoon, I know that I certainly will.

I hope to do the same road one day, I'll spare a thought for the lads as I pass. RIP.

[StottyEvo]

JuniorD said:

If those guys had already been up the road once previously, would they not have known that the bend was practically 90degrees and the drop precarious? Granted it might have been shrouded in low cloud.

There are a huge amount of speculative ideas we can come up with to as why they left the road where they did, have you ever arrive at a corner and recognised it, only to realise that you've mistaken it for different corner? I've done it a couple of times on the Snakes Pass, fortunately I've given myself enough Leeway to keep the car on the tarmac, but I could easily see how I could mistake a corner for another and end up leaving the road.

[R8Steve]

OpulentBob said:

And now we know why the under-25's have such high motor insurance.

Because over 25's never have accidents?

[TTmonkey]

coppice said:

Instead of silly amounts of speculation, why not leave it to the coroner to do his job eh ? 32 pages..Jesus

Why? Why shouldn't we speculate what might have happened? Why would we have a forum to talk about such things if all we ever consumed was official reports? What would be the point of PH if in fact all it contained was the output of official sources? PH is a forum for discussion, which is what is happening.

Why do you even come on this thread or even this forum if all you want to consume is official releases?

If you want to wait for the official coroner's report then you can. You don't have to participate in this thread at all, do you? But still you do - so why? why do you pursue something so pointless?

Oh I know, lets wait for the coroner. He will have all the information after all, wont he? Somehow magically seeing all the posts that these guys made on FaceBook and Seat.net etc? Read all about their driving habits and seen all their videos... Not without someone bringing it to his attention he won't. Without doubt the coroner will be an expert in car modifications, driving and these types of rallies. :rolleye:

the coroner will produce a list of facts based on the evidence he is presented with. Without doubt he will say the car was going too fast and was driven off the cliff accidentally. He'll probably say it was an accident because they haven't left a known suicide note. He'll probably be able to rule out mechanical failure such a brake failure when he gets expert witnesses.


We speculate yes. But many people will also learn from what has happened, and maybe think twice. That's why a discussion is good. That's why theories and experiences are good,. Just how many coroners reports have you read, anyway? Me - none.

[TTmonkey]

R8Steve said:

OpulentBob said:

And now we know why the under-25's have such high motor insurance.

Because over 25's never have accidents?

people do become more self aware of their own mortality at a certain age. Its one of the reasons that insurance companies charge more when younger - at a certain general age people do start taking far less risks in life. Its usually around the time of parenthood and greater responsibility. Whether or not there is a statistical age for this change in thinking I don't know, but I guess there's an average, and its probably around 25 for men.

I don't think this applies to men that ride sports bikes though.,....

[anonymous-user]

TTmonkey said:

I think we do know now though don't we....? This isn't a brake failure. This is the driver not realising he's approaching a sharp left bend, trying to keep up with the Porsche.....

So the RWD/rear/mid engine sport car takes the fast left hander without falling off the mountain side....

but the highly modified over powered front engine/FWD family hatchback ploughs a straight line off the cliff....


Basic driving physics isn't it?

Slow in - fast out. OK.

Er, the difference in absolute corner apex speed between the porsche and the Seat will be in the order of 1 or 2 mph, as both are heavy/tall road cars running on road tyres without aero assistance.


The Driver makes the difference, not the car!!

Chances are, the SEAT arrived 25mph too fast or more, before it left the road.........

[vz-r_dave]

Max_Torque said:

TTmonkey said:

I think we do know now though don't we....? This isn't a brake failure. This is the driver not realising he's approaching a sharp left bend, trying to keep up with the Porsche.....

So the RWD/rear/mid engine sport car takes the fast left hander without falling off the mountain side....

but the highly modified over powered front engine/FWD family hatchback ploughs a straight line off the cliff....


Basic driving physics isn't it?

Slow in - fast out. OK.

Er, the difference in absolute corner apex speed between the porsche and the Seat will be in the order of 1 or 2 mph, as both are heavy/tall road cars running on road tyres without aero assistance.


The Driver makes the difference, not the car!!

Chances are, the SEAT arrived 25mph too fast or more, before it left the road.........

Since when was a Porsche Boxster a tall road car? Also should the centre of gravity, weight distribution not play a part? After-all it is rear engined RWD?

[razor04]

coppice said:

Instead of silly amounts of speculation, why not leave it to the coroner to do his job eh ? 32 pages..Jesus

Waiting for any kind of official investigation or report takes years and then the event is mostly forgotten about, no-one is being disrespectful here a'la daily mail style comments, just trying to reason and deduce how it could have happen to the unfortunate 2 guys who lost their lives, it does strike a chord with fellow car enthusiats and most people on here can probably relate to moddifying a family saloon or hatchback and taking it on spirited drives etc.


FWIW i think the posters here have done a grand job with the webcam footage and stills of the location of the accident.

Edited by razor04 on Tuesday 28th July 13:57

[anonymous-user]

vz-r_dave said:

Max_Torque said:

TTmonkey said:

I think we do know now though don't we....? This isn't a brake failure. This is the driver not realising he's approaching a sharp left bend, trying to keep up with the Porsche.....

So the RWD/rear/mid engine sport car takes the fast left hander without falling off the mountain side....

but the highly modified over powered front engine/FWD family hatchback ploughs a straight line off the cliff....


Basic driving physics isn't it?

Slow in - fast out. OK.

Er, the difference in absolute corner apex speed between the porsche and the Seat will be in the order of 1 or 2 mph, as both are heavy/tall road cars running on road tyres without aero assistance.


The Driver makes the difference, not the car!!

Chances are, the SEAT arrived 25mph too fast or more, before it left the road.........

Since when was a Porsche Boxster a tall road car? Also should the centre of gravity, weight distribution not play a part? After-all it is rear engined RWD?

Compared to a specalist racing car it is. And a specalist racing car is the only thing that can significantly "Out corner" another car!

Typically road cars, even very sporty ones, can corner steady state at around 1g. Even crappy shopping cars can do 0.85g, and moderate "sporty" hatch backs sit at around 0.9 to 0.95g.

In effect that makes the peak apex speed within about 5% for most road cars. So if we take a 60mph corner, that means a difference of just 3mph. If you are regularly driving on the road, relying on just a 3mph safety cushion, then i'm afraid the inevitable is, er inevitable........

[R8Steve]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Where did you get that information from? The official figures show something completely different.

[vz-r_dave]

Max_Torque said:

vz-r_dave said:

Max_Torque said:

TTmonkey said:

I think we do know now though don't we....? This isn't a brake failure. This is the driver not realising he's approaching a sharp left bend, trying to keep up with the Porsche.....

So the RWD/rear/mid engine sport car takes the fast left hander without falling off the mountain side....

but the highly modified over powered front engine/FWD family hatchback ploughs a straight line off the cliff....


Basic driving physics isn't it?

Slow in - fast out. OK.

Er, the difference in absolute corner apex speed between the porsche and the Seat will be in the order of 1 or 2 mph, as both are heavy/tall road cars running on road tyres without aero assistance.


The Driver makes the difference, not the car!!

Chances are, the SEAT arrived 25mph too fast or more, before it left the road.........

Since when was a Porsche Boxster a tall road car? Also should the centre of gravity, weight distribution not play a part? After-all it is rear engined RWD?

Compared to a specalist racing car it is. And a specalist racing car is the only thing that can significantly "Out corner" another car!

Typically road cars, even very sporty ones, can corner steady state at around 1g. Even crappy shopping cars can do 0.85g, and moderate "sporty" hatch backs sit at around 0.9 to 0.95g.

In effect that makes the peak apex speed within about 5% for most road cars. So if we take a 60mph corner, that means a difference of just 3mph. If you are regularly driving on the road, relying on just a 3mph safety cushion, then i'm afraid the inevitable is, er inevitable........

Thanks for the clarification

[LittleEnus]

TTmonkey said:

Why? Why shouldn't we speculate what might have happened? Why would we have a forum to talk about such things if all we ever consumed was official reports? What would be the point of PH if in fact all it contained was the output of official sources? PH is a forum for discussion, which is what is happening.

Why do you even come on this thread or even this forum if all you want to consume is official releases?

If you want to wait for the official coroner's report then you can. You don't have to participate in this thread at all, do you? But still you do - so why? why do you pursue something so pointless?

Oh I know, lets wait for the coroner. He will have all the information after all, wont he? Somehow magically seeing all the posts that these guys made on FaceBook and Seat.net etc? Read all about their driving habits and seen all their videos... Not without someone bringing it to his attention he won't. Without doubt the coroner will be an expert in car modifications, driving and these types of rallies. :rolleye:

the coroner will produce a list of facts based on the evidence he is presented with. Without doubt he will say the car was going too fast and was driven off the cliff accidentally. He'll probably say it was an accident because they haven't left a known suicide note. He'll probably be able to rule out mechanical failure such a brake failure when he gets expert witnesses.


We speculate yes. But many people will also learn from what has happened, and maybe think twice. That's why a discussion is good. That's why theories and experiences are good,. Just how many coroners reports have you read, anyway? Me - none.

Totally agree, I am eager to know more.

[R8Steve]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

It was reported RTA's i was looking at and the national statistics show the average age of fathers is 32 and a half. Not trying to prove you wrong, just genuinely interested. Not sure where the RTA data is taken from, the police and insurance figures may vary greatly.

[andrewlea]

Condolences to all involved , All I can say is thank god owing a car with getting on for 300BHP was a impossible dream when i was 22 i got into enough trouble with less than a third of that figure....

[northernmedia]

Couldn't agree more buddy.
Sobering but lets hope some good may come of it.
If just one youngster pauses and thinks before doing something similar it may make the whole episode somewhat easier to swallow.

[TTmonkey]

Max_Torque said:

Er, the difference in absolute corner apex speed between the porsche and the Seat will be in the order of 1 or 2 mph, as both are heavy/tall road cars running on road tyres without aero assistance.


The Driver makes the difference, not the car!!

Chances are, the SEAT arrived 25mph too fast or more, before it left the road.........

Well I'm surprised that you think this would make such little difference. But happy to accept that this true, if you say so.

However, my main point was the different handling characteristics that you get between FWD and RWD - the RWD allows you to a small amount of control of a car that's going to fast for the corner in a way that still allows you to get around the corner... where as the FWD car just continues in the straight line to the scene of the accident.

Without doubt they entered the corner way too fast - we may never know why - but I would guess that he's unaware how much this bend tightens. Perhaps he got his location wrong - you think you know what the road does around the next corner, only to find when you get there that its not actually the corner you thought it was.... certainly this is what happened to me when I had my accident - I simply set my car up for a different corner than I was actually taking. I set up for a 100mph corner to find that it was a sub 50mph corner when I got there..... I momentarily found myself further up the road than I actually was, by about 500 metres....


Its also quite possible that the driver suffered a medical seizure of some kind, and went straight on at a corner his car could actually handle. However, the reports from the cyclist, if accurate, probably make this doubtful.

[aeropilot]

andrewlea said:

All I can say is thank god owing a car with getting on for 300BHP was a impossible dream when i was 22 i got into enough trouble with less than a third of that figure....

Indeed......