2 young guys killed in Austrian Alps racing. Came off a clif

[TTmonkey]

Actually thinking about it, a total lack of skid/brake marks on the road may just point to a medical seizure.
As you'd think that there was always something that the guy could do that would leave some clues.... brake/skid marks etc....


Whatever happened, the passenger would have known they were in big trouble. terrible way to go.

[TTmonkey]

aeropilot said:

andrewlea said:

All I can say is thank god owing a car with getting on for 300BHP was a impossible dream when i was 22 i got into enough trouble with less than a third of that figure....

Indeed......

When I was their age I had an XR3i, think they had 115bhp? Drove it like a fool at times too. Seemed pretty fast to me at the time.

Went from that to the new shape Mk 2 MR2. The one that really couldn't go around corners. Took it to the 'ring, in the days before it went totally commercial.... just a bloke on the start line with a shoulder bag, you gave him 12 deucthemarks a lap I think.... 1990 I think.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

vz-r_dave said:

Max_Torque said:

vz-r_dave said:

Max_Torque said:

TTmonkey said:

I think we do know now though don't we....? This isn't a brake failure. This is the driver not realising he's approaching a sharp left bend, trying to keep up with the Porsche.....

So the RWD/rear/mid engine sport car takes the fast left hander without falling off the mountain side....

but the highly modified over powered front engine/FWD family hatchback ploughs a straight line off the cliff....


Basic driving physics isn't it?

Slow in - fast out. OK.

Er, the difference in absolute corner apex speed between the porsche and the Seat will be in the order of 1 or 2 mph, as both are heavy/tall road cars running on road tyres without aero assistance.


The Driver makes the difference, not the car!!

Chances are, the SEAT arrived 25mph too fast or more, before it left the road.........

Since when was a Porsche Boxster a tall road car? Also should the centre of gravity, weight distribution not play a part? After-all it is rear engined RWD?

Compared to a specalist racing car it is. And a specalist racing car is the only thing that can significantly "Out corner" another car!

Typically road cars, even very sporty ones, can corner steady state at around 1g. Even crappy shopping cars can do 0.85g, and moderate "sporty" hatch backs sit at around 0.9 to 0.95g.

In effect that makes the peak apex speed within about 5% for most road cars. So if we take a 60mph corner, that means a difference of just 3mph. If you are regularly driving on the road, relying on just a 3mph safety cushion, then i'm afraid the inevitable is, er inevitable........

Thanks for the clarification

None of which would appear to have any basis on the outcome in this event, as (already posted) the car left no evidence of skidding out of control according to the police.

So far the only witness statements we have is that the porsche and the seat were travelling at high speed together earlier in the climb (from the cyclist) and that the porsche lost sight of the Seat and failed to meet at their planned rendezvous later in the morning(from the Porsche driver). There still isn't anyone to put the two cars together where the accident happened.

JuniorD said:

If those guys had already been up the road once previously, would they not have known that the bend was practically 90degrees and the drop precarious? Granted it might have been shrouded in low cloud.

Not so. The corner where the accident took place is not on the way to the pass summit. You could drive to the summit car park, drive back down, return to the top and not take this corner. This particular bend deviates from a T junction that directs you along a different ridge at the top of the pass.

(See my photos posted on the previous page, I'll try and post a wide angle shot to show what I mean....)

[delta0]

TTmonkey said:

Actually thinking about it, a total lack of skid/brake marks on the road may just point to a medical seizure.
As you'd think that there was always something that the guy could do that would leave some clues.... brake/skid marks etc....


Whatever happened, the passenger would have known they were in big trouble. terrible way to go.

ABS and/or cooked brakes potentially.

[SonicShadow]

TTmonkey said:

When I was their age I had an XR3i, think they had 115bhp? Drove it like a fool at times too. Seemed pretty fast to me at the time.

Went from that to the new shape Mk 2 MR2. The one that really couldn't go around corners. Took it to the 'ring, in the days before it went totally commercial.... just a bloke on the start line with a shoulder bag, you gave him 12 deucthemarks a lap I think.... 1990 I think.

Why, was it broken?

[andrewlea]

I think after reading all the posts on the net and viewing the vids its down to the two lads simply driving far to quickly and getting carried away with the whole adventure, We have all been there i suspect , most of us got away with it only by the grace of god , I know i have several times both on two wheels due to youthful over exuberance and the fact when your 22 you know your immortal..one thing to be thankful for was no one else was hurt in the tragedy

Edited by andrewlea on Tuesday 28th July 15:33

[andrewlea]

I think after reading all the posts on the net and viewing the vids its down to the two lads simply driving far to quickly and getting carried away with the whole adventure, We have all been there i suspect , most of us got away with it only by the grace of god , I know i have several times both on two wheels due to youthful over exuberance and the fact when your 22 you know your immortal..one thing to be thankful for was no one else was hurt in the tragedy

Edited by andrewlea on Tuesday 28th July 15:34

[Super Slo Mo]

SonicShadow said:

Why, was it broken?

One of the magazines, might have been CAR, made a big deal about it having lift off oversteer that was difficult to catch. Think the headline was something like "How Toyota Spoilt the New MR2".
It was 25 years ago so I might have remembered it wrong.

[TTmonkey]

This photo taken at 7.40, within a few minutes of the accident, appears to show several people, perhaps embracing/comforting one another.

Would be interesting to know if they witnessed it happen.

[mybrainhurts]

OpulentBob said:

And now we know why the under-25's have such high motor insurance.

Has it really taken you 40 years to notice that?

[TTmonkey]

Super Slo Mo said:

SonicShadow said:

Why, was it broken?

One of the magazines, might have been CAR, made a big deal about it having lift off oversteer that was difficult to catch. Think the headline was something like "How Toyota Spoilt the New MR2".
It was 25 years ago so I might have remembered it wrong.

yes you are completely right. The very first cars produced handled really badly, on a poor OEM tyre choice. Suspension modifications and a tyre change followed from the manufacturer.

Would let go with zero warning. Looked nice though.

[heebeegeetee]

Max_Torque said:

Er, the difference in absolute corner apex speed between the porsche and the Seat will be in the order of 1 or 2 mph, as both are heavy/tall road cars running on road tyres without aero assistance.


The Driver makes the difference, not the car!!
..

I agree. ALL of the difference will be in the driver imo. FWD/RWD etc will make very little difference in cornering, imo.

[heronio]

TTmonkey said:

This photo taken at 7.40, within a few minutes of the accident, appears to show several people, perhaps embracing/comforting one another.

Would be interesting to know if they witnessed it happen.

I think that's a woman wearing a red scarf. You can see her in the later stills, talking and standing with the police and rescue workers. Probably the first person "at the scene" so to speak. It sorta looks like she's on the phone at 7.40.

If I ever have the pleasure of driving in the Alps (and i'd certainly like to one day), I will remember this and go carefully. I'm a 'stop and take photos' type of person anyway, but this would definitely be in my mind.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

To try and clarify what I posted before;


This is the road up to the blind bend of the accident-I'll repeat again it is unsighted from a car/bike position heading up the hill. It is not however the "summit" of the pass so to speak. if they had previously driven to the summit, parked up and turned back again to the bottom and then done the climb for a second time it is not likely they'd have gotten this far.


This photo shows the climb and is taken from the summit-with the stone memorial at the top of the image.


Google maps, the dropped pin is the stone memorial with the 90 degree left hander being the corner where the accident was, the car travelling from right to left on the image.

The photo icon on the map is where you would stop at the top-it has the visitor centre, toilets, cafe etc. If they had previously ascended this is the natural point where you would stop, take some photos and then go back down. See the junction below;



Ascending to the top they would have turned left here instead of going right towards the memorial and the corner where they came off.

The only reason to carry on along the ridge would be to drive around the ridge and down the other side into the next valley, presumably what they were doing when they had the accident.

All this is a long winded way of saying I'd reckon there's an extremely good chance this was the first time they encountered that bend and either didn't see it coming or completely misunderstood its severity. I'd also say from personal experience, you don't get up at 7am to tackle an alpine pass at a leisurely pace especially in a high powered sports car whilst in convoy with other cars on a rally. But that (like most of this post) is merely conjecture based on personal experience.

Edited by LaurasOtherHalf on Tuesday 28th July 15:58

[TTmonkey]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

To try and clarify what I posted before;


This is the road up to the blind bend of the accident-I'll repeat again it is unsighted from a car/bike position heading up the hill. It is not however the "summit" of the pass so to speak. if they had previously driven to the summit, parked up and turned back again to the bottom and then done the climb for a second time it is not likely they'd have gotten this far.


This photo shows the climb and is taken from the summit-with the stone memorial at the top of the image.


Google maps, the dropped pin is the stone memorial with the 90 degree left hander being the corner where the accident was, the car travelling from right to left on the image.

The photo icon on the map is where you would stop at the top-it has the visitor centre, toilets, cafe etc. If they had previously ascended this is the natural point where you would stop, take some photos and then go back down. See the junction below;



Ascending to the top they would have turned left here instead of going right towards the memorial and the corner where they came off.

The only reason to carry on along the ridge would be to drive around the ridge and down the other side into the next valley, presumably what they were doing when they had the accident.

All this is a long winded way of saying I'd reckon there's an extremely good chance this was the first time they encountered that bend and either didn't see it coming or completely misunderstood its severity. I'd also say from personal experience, you don't get up at 7am to tackle an alpine pass at a leisurely pace especially in a high powered sports car whilst in convoy with other cars on a rally. But that (like most of this post) is merely conjecture based on personal experience.

Edited by LaurasOtherHalf on Tuesday 28th July 15:58

So you are effectively saying you think they've gone past the point where they would normally have stopped, and turned around to go back down....?

[LukeR94]

What a truly awful and horryfing thing to happen. The stills from the panorama at 7.30 and 7.40 are even creepier. One photo its there, next fence is gone. Almost morbid.

Certainly changed my opinion of how i'd drive on roads such as this.

[anonymous-user]

Super Slo Mo said:

SonicShadow said:

Why, was it broken?

One of the magazines, might have been CAR, made a big deal about it having lift off oversteer that was difficult to catch. Think the headline was something like "How Toyota Spoilt the New MR2".
It was 25 years ago so I might have remembered it wrong.

Mine handled very well indeed. A rev 1 too, so supposedly the worst of the bunch. But it still never let go on me, apart from in the snow. To get it to oversteer was very difficult in dry conditions.

[Gixer]

TTmonkey said:

So you are effectively saying you think they've gone past the point where they would normally have stopped, and turned around to go back down....?

I've been there and driven the road but last time was some time ago but I do remember driving it all the way, pass that junction where there's the small road to the summit (which I never bothered with), if you keep going until there is no more road you get to a busy little place with a multi-storey car park from which there is various long hikes and glacier views etc. I can't remember the name but looking at my photos, I wonder if its Gamsgrubenweg . We hiked for a few hours before driving back down

Funny enough having driven the length of the road and back, after reaching the bottom, the road (which had been busy all day) was noticeably quiet and I turned around and had a good quick drive back up the best bit, stopping and turning around and taking a quick pic right where it's thought they went off. Can't remember what time of year we went, but the car still being stickered for Le Mans would suggest late or after June. I remember waiting for an hour or so for them to re-plough a section of road as heavy snow fall had caused a load of snow to slide down the mountain and block a couple of hundred meters of road.

I try and get away on at least one road trip a year and have driven many great mountain and gorge roads. Rarely do the more famous ones live up to their names, they're are normally much busier and often not as pretty or as good to drive as the smaller less known passes. My memory of this road was that it was really busy and quite wide compared to many other passes. Whilst all these passes often have massive drops and no barrier or just markers, they clearly need to be treated with respect but falling off one of these passes at 60mph is going to hurt just as much as hitting a tree at the side of one of our B roads at 60mph.

Whether you're out for a drive on the road or having fun on the ring or track, drive at your pace and don't get suckered into trying to race or keep up with another driver - regardless of what they are in. You have no idea of who they are, how good they can drive or what they are capable of.

More than likely, he was playing catch up and pushed a little bit too hard. Sadly the outcome in this case was tragic. I'm sure we've all been there at some point but got away with it one way or another. Very sad.

[Gixer]

[Four Litre]

Whatever the reason behind the incident its still a tragic accident.

At the ages of 22-25 I really think its a bit much to be driving a 300bhp car. I'm sure that a few of you with lightening reflexes and Lewis Hamilton racing skilllllz will disagree. Its amazing on the open road how many variables there are for things to go wrong, multiply this by a few hundred BHP and hit a mountain pass, chuck in a few equally enthusiastic mates and I think its fair to say its very, very easy for anyone to get carried away.

I've done a few of these trips and only due to a (little) bit of maturity I've known when to calm down a bit and cool things down, back it my 20's with a cloak of invincibility, Im 100% sure this wouldn't of been the case. Only thing that stopped me was a lack of funds to go anywhere further that the local roads and 75bhp!

Really hope this doesn't put a stop to people doing these trips, however this incident brings home what can potentially happen when people get carried away ...