2 young guys killed in Austrian Alps racing. Came off a clif
Discussion
StottyEvo said:
I think this story has struck a nerve as a lot of people on this forum can relate, I know I certainly can.
It is a great shame but I'm glad the event is being discussed in such detail as hopefully we will all think a little more whilst on a hoon, I know that I certainly will.
I hope to do the same road one day, I'll spare a thought for the lads as I pass. RIP.
Well put, have been following this thread for the past couple of days it's one that really hits home and is just tragic. Having lost 2 close family members in accidents (1 car, 1 aircraft), being able to learn about possible events and then discuss these with people has helped over the years. It is a great shame but I'm glad the event is being discussed in such detail as hopefully we will all think a little more whilst on a hoon, I know that I certainly will.
I hope to do the same road one day, I'll spare a thought for the lads as I pass. RIP.
My Uncle was killed in a car accident 11 years ago - I had a good chance to chat with the investigating officer and sit through the inquest. One thing I did learn is that witness statements can be very hit and miss - so when reading the report from the cyclist this should be considered. There were two witnesses in my Uncles case, one was absolutely convinced the car was travelling at 70 mph in a 40, and driving erratically.
The other witness stated the car was being driven in a sensible manner within the speed limit. The police proved the impact speed was 39mph. Personal perception comes into play.
Regards the scale of the break, it's at least 2 of the metal fence panels in length, that are erected, and the picture at 11.20 has a very rough idea of size as a car has just past the missing fence. With the orange marks outlined by the police, it really does appear to be a case of under-steering through the corner, and the with the kerb that would have been hit that would surely have had a negative influence on regaining control, adding to the very sad outcome.
As was mentioned earlier in the thread, the police/coroner may well be in position of all the facts already, if any of the camera's were rolling - alongside all the other facebook and car build posts, which any good investigator should look up, will likely give a detailed insight into the chain of events immediately prior to the accident and the accident itself.
Very sad outcome for a couple of dedicated petrol heads. RIP.
Scan left on the webcam to the car park on the opposite side of the hill and drop back to 6.40am.. is this them? I can't work out if this would be a Leon or not. Certainly a black or blue car..
Sitting on a rock(?)
Walking down the footpath
2 people standing next to the car
Click the images to get to the imgur hosting, and then click the picture again to get the original size. This was as far as it would zoom in.
Sitting on a rock(?)
Walking down the footpath
2 people standing next to the car
Click the images to get to the imgur hosting, and then click the picture again to get the original size. This was as far as it would zoom in.
I just zoomed your image 500% and it looks more like some kind of people carrier,it has a very long straight roof when zoomed in.
EDITED
Ignore that... I think you might be right. I just opened your picture and zoomed that in 500% and yes it does look like it,can almost work out the black/grey style wheels.
And your last picture almost looks like the guy in the red jacket is about to get in,the image on page 16 is the friend Danny wearing the red coat.
EDITED
Ignore that... I think you might be right. I just opened your picture and zoomed that in 500% and yes it does look like it,can almost work out the black/grey style wheels.
And your last picture almost looks like the guy in the red jacket is about to get in,the image on page 16 is the friend Danny wearing the red coat.
Edited by TVRJAS on Wednesday 29th July 00:29
razor04 said:
TTmonkey said:
Super Slo Mo said:
SonicShadow said:
Why, was it broken?
One of the magazines, might have been CAR, made a big deal about it having lift off oversteer that was difficult to catch. Think the headline was something like "How Toyota Spoilt the New MR2".It was 25 years ago so I might have remembered it wrong.
Would let go with zero warning. Looked nice though.
Wet conditions will see it let go easier but it will let go in the dry.
Decent rubber is needed on the rear and needs tonbe changed once tread is half worn really.
And they dont drift well either (que loads of vids of MR2 doing fantastic backwards entry drifts lol)
As i said before, my rev 1 on 16 inch wheels with a decent geo set up was as solid as a rock, I would run out of balls long before the car was at its limits. To lose control in one, you must have been driving like a lunatic, or as said before, it was broken.
Turbo is a different animal, but to lose it in an NA suggests driving it like you're playing GTA.
heronio said:
Scan left on the webcam to the car park on the opposite side of the hill and drop back to 6.40am.. is this them? I can't work out if this would be a Leon or not. Certainly a black or blue car..
Sitting on a rock(?)
Walking down the footpath
2 people standing next to the car
Click the images to get to the imgur hosting, and then click the picture again to get the original size. This was as far as it would zoom in.
Sitting on a rock(?)
Walking down the footpath
2 people standing next to the car
Click the images to get to the imgur hosting, and then click the picture again to get the original size. This was as far as it would zoom in.
RIP lads.
hornetrider said:
heronio said:
Scan left on the webcam to the car park on the opposite side of the hill and drop back to 6.40am.. is this them? I can't work out if this would be a Leon or not. Certainly a black or blue car..
Sitting on a rock(?)
Walking down the footpath
2 people standing next to the car
Click the images to get to the imgur hosting, and then click the picture again to get the original size. This was as far as it would zoom in.
Sitting on a rock(?)
Walking down the footpath
2 people standing next to the car
Click the images to get to the imgur hosting, and then click the picture again to get the original size. This was as far as it would zoom in.
RIP lads.
6:46am
6:56am
Then it jumps to 7:15am and is no longer there.
Scroll around the hillside and the barrier is intact up until 7:45am. The Porsche driver said they were seen at the toll booth so does that allow enough time for them to get down there and back up again? It's a maximum window of 50 mins I guess.
If it is them, it certainly shows they had taken the corner on their first run.
really makes me wonder if there's a camera or phone on that mountain side with all the answers on it. I'd guess a lot of personal affects will never be recovered due to the terrain.
Its odd they seemed to be filming with hand held equipment, you'd have thought people with that much enthusiasm for what they were doing would have had dash cameras fitted.
Its odd they seemed to be filming with hand held equipment, you'd have thought people with that much enthusiasm for what they were doing would have had dash cameras fitted.
TTmonkey said:
really makes me wonder if there's a camera or phone on that mountain side with all the answers on it. I'd guess a lot of personal affects will never be recovered due to the terrain.
Its odd they seemed to be filming with hand held equipment, you'd have thought people with that much enthusiasm for what they were doing would have had dash cameras fitted.
It's a bit of a rough translation from google but the Salzburg newspaper that was quoted earlier in the thread suggests they are at a loss as to what happened and are searching the grass for more clues;Its odd they seemed to be filming with hand held equipment, you'd have thought people with that much enthusiasm for what they were doing would have had dash cameras fitted.
http://salzburg.orf.at/news/stories/2723717/
rough google translation said:
Glockner crash in the UK In Depth
For quite a stir in Britain of spectacular traffic accident makes last Friday on the Grossglockner High Alpine Road. Two young Englishmen were killed. Now gave the bewildered parents of the victim interviews.
The reports of the deaths of two car fans at Fuscher Törl shock the British public. According to reports of eyewitnesses, the two young car drivers have come a race on the Grossglockner High Alpine Road. Now the parents of the dead speak in British television BBC: "The two lads have life yet so loved," says Brain Hall, the father of the late Danny.
ORF
In social network friends and relatives commemorate the two deceased handlebars.
Casualties would be Moderators
On the Internet have friends and relatives the two deceased, a 22-year-olds and a 25 year old who already dedicated memorial pages. His son Josh had a bright future ahead of him, the father of Marcus Robinson says: "The two boys wanted to be moderators of Motorsport consignment."
Pierced fall protection for pedestrians
The toll road operators are at a loss, given the enormous frivolity of two car fans, says Johannes Hörl, chairman of the Grossglockner High Alpine Road PLC: The young British drove her car with extremely speeding up. You have pierced the fall protection for pedestrians. They were five times as fast on the road, as is permitted there. "Hörl will therefore expand the educational work against the grass on the Grossglockner High Alpine Road on.
The fatal accident speeders on the Grossglockner High Alpine Road provides also in the home of the deceased handlebar stir.
My bold.For quite a stir in Britain of spectacular traffic accident makes last Friday on the Grossglockner High Alpine Road. Two young Englishmen were killed. Now gave the bewildered parents of the victim interviews.
The reports of the deaths of two car fans at Fuscher Törl shock the British public. According to reports of eyewitnesses, the two young car drivers have come a race on the Grossglockner High Alpine Road. Now the parents of the dead speak in British television BBC: "The two lads have life yet so loved," says Brain Hall, the father of the late Danny.
ORF
In social network friends and relatives commemorate the two deceased handlebars.
Casualties would be Moderators
On the Internet have friends and relatives the two deceased, a 22-year-olds and a 25 year old who already dedicated memorial pages. His son Josh had a bright future ahead of him, the father of Marcus Robinson says: "The two boys wanted to be moderators of Motorsport consignment."
Pierced fall protection for pedestrians
The toll road operators are at a loss, given the enormous frivolity of two car fans, says Johannes Hörl, chairman of the Grossglockner High Alpine Road PLC: The young British drove her car with extremely speeding up. You have pierced the fall protection for pedestrians. They were five times as fast on the road, as is permitted there. "Hörl will therefore expand the educational work against the grass on the Grossglockner High Alpine Road on.
The fatal accident speeders on the Grossglockner High Alpine Road provides also in the home of the deceased handlebar stir.
"five times as fast...." something lost in translation there?
Does that mean five times as fast as speed limit or five times faster than the barriers were designed for? Ether way, it's nonsense.
I hope they've had qualified crash investigators up there, because although we can have a good guess as to what happened, they need to establish what led up to this with some degree of certainty in order to give some closure to the families.
Does that mean five times as fast as speed limit or five times faster than the barriers were designed for? Ether way, it's nonsense.
I hope they've had qualified crash investigators up there, because although we can have a good guess as to what happened, they need to establish what led up to this with some degree of certainty in order to give some closure to the families.
Possibly? All I knew was a 100kph speed limit the same as any other "B road" like ours but seeing as the accident took place just past the junction there maybe is a short limited section there.
Not sure where this estimated speed comes from either? Were they quoted as saying 100mph on the video taken earlier in the week?
Not sure where this estimated speed comes from either? Were they quoted as saying 100mph on the video taken earlier in the week?
LaurasOtherHalf said:
Possibly? All I knew was a 100kph speed limit the same as any other "B road" like ours but seeing as the accident took place just past the junction there maybe is a short limited section there.
Not sure where this estimated speed comes from either? Were they quoted as saying 100mph on the video taken earlier in the week?
AFAIK, the limit on that road would be 100kph unless going through a village or town, where it could go down to 50kph. Even if it were 50kph at that point, a speed of 250kph seems unlikely... Not sure where this estimated speed comes from either? Were they quoted as saying 100mph on the video taken earlier in the week?
There have been various estimates of speed in this thread and other sources. So far, nobody has any information which corroborates any particular speed, it is all guesswork.
The only thing we can say for sure right now is that the car was travelling fast enough at the point of impact to render the wooden "pedestrian" barriers useless, but that could be any speed from maybe 5mph upwards, I would suggest. Having said that, I've looked at the webcam frames quite carefully and there are some skidmarks evident, although they are quite difficult to make out and it's impossible to get enough detail from the photos to conclude much else. That's why I hope they've had crash investigators up there.
Edited by FurtiveFreddy on Wednesday 29th July 11:56
B'stard Child said:
smokeey said:
DonkeyApple said:
Unless on a conveyor belt.
Well now seems like a good time to ask, would the plane take off? I'm saying no, but it seems to obvious, so maybe it would??
t gets funnier each time I read it, especially when included in a topic about two deaths 
Can we do the one about a mapped BMW? I think I might have involuntarily urinated. Ha. Ha. Ha.
FurtiveFreddy said:
"five times as fast...." something lost in translation there?
Does that mean five times as fast as speed limit or five times faster than the barriers were designed for? Ether way, it's nonsense.
I hope they've had qualified crash investigators up there, because although we can have a good guess as to what happened, they need to establish what led up to this with some degree of certainty in order to give some closure to the families.
Does that mean five times as fast as speed limit or five times faster than the barriers were designed for? Ether way, it's nonsense.
I hope they've had qualified crash investigators up there, because although we can have a good guess as to what happened, they need to establish what led up to this with some degree of certainty in order to give some closure to the families.
FurtiveFreddy said:
AFAIK, the limit on that road would be 100kph unless going through a village or town, where it could go down to 50kph. Even if it were 50kph at that point, a speed of 250kph seems unlikely...
There have been various estimates of speed in this thread and other sources. So far, nobody has any information which corroborates any particular speed, it is all guesswork.
The only thing we can say for sure right now is that the car was travelling fast enough at the point of impact to render the wooden "pedestrian" barriers useless, but that could be any speed from maybe 5mph upwards, I would suggest. Having said that, I've looked at the webcam frames quite carefully and there are some skidmarks evident, although they are quite difficult to make out and it's impossible to get enough detail from the photos to conclude much else. That's why I hope they've had crash investigators up there.
It could be a translation error from the report and could have actually meant recommended speed. That could easily have been as low as 30 kph, the corner is sharp and blind.There have been various estimates of speed in this thread and other sources. So far, nobody has any information which corroborates any particular speed, it is all guesswork.
The only thing we can say for sure right now is that the car was travelling fast enough at the point of impact to render the wooden "pedestrian" barriers useless, but that could be any speed from maybe 5mph upwards, I would suggest. Having said that, I've looked at the webcam frames quite carefully and there are some skidmarks evident, although they are quite difficult to make out and it's impossible to get enough detail from the photos to conclude much else. That's why I hope they've had crash investigators up there.
Edited by FurtiveFreddy on Wednesday 29th July 11:56
delta0 said:
It could be a translation error from the report and could have actually meant recommended speed. That could easily have been as low as 30 kph, the corner is sharp and blind.
True, although looking at the photos there seems to be little in the way of signage indicating that one should slow or even that a bend is approaching, other than a 'pedestrian crossing' sign painted on the road just before the approach to the corner. I'm not saying that's a reason to assume otherwise, of course.
Edited by FurtiveFreddy on Wednesday 29th July 12:31
Exige77 said:
I do this kind of trip every year.
We will pass that exact spot later this year.
As well as a well prepared vehicle, you do need some experience.
The previous night, they probably put away the car with nice warm grippy tyres. That was their last experience of the grip available.
First thing next morning, its usually much colder and tyres have no grip.
You maybe wouldn't notice that until you hit the first fast bend with coldish tyres.
Here's some motorbike footage of that bend.
The incident place is at 22:23
The corner is blind so you have do slow down quite a lot without seeing the full extent of the bend.
https://youtu.be/8qBmVzuGyqs?t=22m15s
And there was a very serious crash by one of our party one year Henry. Amazed there weren't more serious injuries that time. Different place and the outcome could have been the same as in this case. We will pass that exact spot later this year.
As well as a well prepared vehicle, you do need some experience.
The previous night, they probably put away the car with nice warm grippy tyres. That was their last experience of the grip available.
First thing next morning, its usually much colder and tyres have no grip.
You maybe wouldn't notice that until you hit the first fast bend with coldish tyres.
Here's some motorbike footage of that bend.
The incident place is at 22:23
The corner is blind so you have do slow down quite a lot without seeing the full extent of the bend.
https://youtu.be/8qBmVzuGyqs?t=22m15s
There are speed limits on the Grossglockner road and some as low as 30km/h as already mentioned. I don't think they were 5 times over as that would mean 150km/h but it wouldn't surprise me if there were a limit of 50km/h and they were most definitely well over that.
Like I said, I've been on that road several times. I've even cycled up to the top and down again in the Giro D'Italia amateur stage and it's both dangerous and you are very limited with the speed you can carry through.
It's a sad fact, but the drivers were simply going too fast on an unknown road and they over-cooked it on a sharp bend.
A sad but poignant lesson for all to be more sensible when driving on completely unknown roads.
Like I said, I've been on that road several times. I've even cycled up to the top and down again in the Giro D'Italia amateur stage and it's both dangerous and you are very limited with the speed you can carry through.
It's a sad fact, but the drivers were simply going too fast on an unknown road and they over-cooked it on a sharp bend.
A sad but poignant lesson for all to be more sensible when driving on completely unknown roads.
Perhaps he meant 5 x a safe speed, 5 x a sensible speed, 5 x a recommended speed or similar.
Is it really necessary to put up speed limits on a road that has 36 switchback corners, sheer drops, blind crests, blind bends, extreme weather conditions, etc? Or is there an accepted level of common sense that the authorities would expect a driver to have?
After all, speed limits are "absolute maximums", not minimum targets.
Is it really necessary to put up speed limits on a road that has 36 switchback corners, sheer drops, blind crests, blind bends, extreme weather conditions, etc? Or is there an accepted level of common sense that the authorities would expect a driver to have?
After all, speed limits are "absolute maximums", not minimum targets.
In the Salzburg news website the guy Johannes Hörl, is quoted as syaing
"Die jungen Briten sind mit ihrem Auto mit extrem überhöhter Geschwindigkeit hinauf gefahren. Sie haben die Absturzsicherung für Fußgänger durchstoßen. Sie waren fünfmal so schnell unterwegs, als dort erlaubt ist."
I speak German and my translation is "The young Britons drove up at extreme excessive speed. They crashed through the pedestrian fall protection barriers. They were moving five times as fast as is allowed there".
Allowed = permitted.
"Die jungen Briten sind mit ihrem Auto mit extrem überhöhter Geschwindigkeit hinauf gefahren. Sie haben die Absturzsicherung für Fußgänger durchstoßen. Sie waren fünfmal so schnell unterwegs, als dort erlaubt ist."
I speak German and my translation is "The young Britons drove up at extreme excessive speed. They crashed through the pedestrian fall protection barriers. They were moving five times as fast as is allowed there".
Allowed = permitted.
Edited by JuniorD on Wednesday 29th July 15:09
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