2 young guys killed in Austrian Alps racing. Came off a clif
Discussion
coppice said:
48 pages now- unbelievable. Let's suppose the poor lads hadn't died but had just a near miss. 2 -3 pages tops?
But they did die, so that's a completely irrelevant argument. Why you are so surprised that a serious car related incident has drawn a lot of attention on a car enthusiasts forum?Personally I'm more surprised that threads like "Show your new shoes" have so many posts, when there are plenty of fashion/lifestyle forums around to discuss the finer points of footwear fashion.
Edited by Mr2Mike on Friday 31st July 10:49
s3fella said:
I'm pretty sure this is merely a case poor driving from someone with lots of confidence hat thinks they are better than they actually are. Looking at the seatcurpa threads, including his "build" thread, I cannot help feeling the guy is somewhat leading the life of someone he is not! And by that I mean he appears to be some self styled motoring journo, everything he does he takes a pic of and posts it up, which is fine in itself, but it can lead one to think they are something they are not perhaps? Perhaps a better vehicle engineer, perhaps a more exhuberant personality, perhaps the seeming adulation that living ones life online like that can bring, makes one think you are a better driver than one really is?
I hate to say it, but this guy does genuinely appear to fit the stereotype of an "accident waiting to happen", a dreadful phrase btw that is misused by every NIMBY and jobsworth out there! But I think he and to a lesser extent his cohort, just got caught up in a roller coaster of buying a quick hatch, tuning a quick hatch, posting all about it, getting adulation from similar minded people, driving it about no doubt inappropriately at times, (some video evidence of that), getting away with that, people thinking they are "Ledgends" etc, and time just ran out for them. It is a shame, they aren't the first and wont be the last, but the comments about if someone similar reads this thread etc, may hold some hope for those behind..
It is interesting, there is mention on seatcupra about mechanical failures on this car, engine and gearbox mountings, and some suggestion parts had previously been fitted that appeared to have failed. Maybe something did give up the ghost, but regardless, driver should always have a margin for error that will mitigate the (in this case, tragic) results.
I wonder how many trackdays this guy had been on, how much tuition he had sought to help him drive his car. It is clear he spent a lot of time and money making it faster, but I wonder how much time and money he spent on the largest difference to safe vehicle performance, the guy behind then wheel? I genuinely don't know the answer, but I suspect it is somewhat less than he spent on tuning parts.
It is sad, and I feel sorry for the families and friends affected. The only fortunate thing in all this is that there was seemingly no other vehicle involved in a collision etc, and that is of stark comfort to the families etc, I know that. But perhaps the infamy sought by these guys may well be achieved posthumously, and perhaps other people who get themselves caught up in the excitement of a life, forum, trip, stretch of road, or mere corner, will spare a thought for the price paid by these guys and their families...?
RIP chaps.
I think this sums things up rather well...looking at the evidence available they certainly did seem to be playing to the crowd , Both guys appered to have the same mind set , Pity perhaps he didnt have someone with him who maybe was a little less gung ho who may have had a slightly moderating influence on the proccedingsI hate to say it, but this guy does genuinely appear to fit the stereotype of an "accident waiting to happen", a dreadful phrase btw that is misused by every NIMBY and jobsworth out there! But I think he and to a lesser extent his cohort, just got caught up in a roller coaster of buying a quick hatch, tuning a quick hatch, posting all about it, getting adulation from similar minded people, driving it about no doubt inappropriately at times, (some video evidence of that), getting away with that, people thinking they are "Ledgends" etc, and time just ran out for them. It is a shame, they aren't the first and wont be the last, but the comments about if someone similar reads this thread etc, may hold some hope for those behind..
It is interesting, there is mention on seatcupra about mechanical failures on this car, engine and gearbox mountings, and some suggestion parts had previously been fitted that appeared to have failed. Maybe something did give up the ghost, but regardless, driver should always have a margin for error that will mitigate the (in this case, tragic) results.
I wonder how many trackdays this guy had been on, how much tuition he had sought to help him drive his car. It is clear he spent a lot of time and money making it faster, but I wonder how much time and money he spent on the largest difference to safe vehicle performance, the guy behind then wheel? I genuinely don't know the answer, but I suspect it is somewhat less than he spent on tuning parts.
It is sad, and I feel sorry for the families and friends affected. The only fortunate thing in all this is that there was seemingly no other vehicle involved in a collision etc, and that is of stark comfort to the families etc, I know that. But perhaps the infamy sought by these guys may well be achieved posthumously, and perhaps other people who get themselves caught up in the excitement of a life, forum, trip, stretch of road, or mere corner, will spare a thought for the price paid by these guys and their families...?
RIP chaps.
Edited by s3fella on Friday 31st July 10:03
Interesting to note he states in one of his threads that last month he had four engine mounts fail in a matter of four weeks ....
Edited by andrewlea on Friday 31st July 12:22
Edited by andrewlea on Friday 31st July 12:29
s3fella said:
I'm pretty sure this is merely a case poor driving from someone with lots of confidence hat thinks they are better than they actually are. Looking at the seatcurpa threads, including his "build" thread, I cannot help feeling the guy is somewhat leading the life of someone he is not! And by that I mean he appears to be some self styled motoring journo, everything he does he takes a pic of and posts it up, which is fine in itself, but it can lead one to think they are something they are not perhaps? Perhaps a better vehicle engineer, perhaps a more exhuberant personality, perhaps the seeming adulation that living ones life online like that can bring, makes one think you are a better driver than one really is?
I hate to say it, but this guy does genuinely appear to fit the stereotype of an "accident waiting to happen", a dreadful phrase btw that is misused by every NIMBY and jobsworth out there! But I think he and to a lesser extent his cohort, just got caught up in a roller coaster of buying a quick hatch, tuning a quick hatch, posting all about it, getting adulation from similar minded people, driving it about no doubt inappropriately at times, (some video evidence of that), getting away with that, people thinking they are "Ledgends" etc, and time just ran out for them. It is a shame, they aren't the first and wont be the last, but the comments about if someone similar reads this thread etc, may hold some hope for those behind..
It is interesting, there is mention on seatcupra about mechanical failures on this car, engine and gearbox mountings, and some suggestion parts had previously been fitted that appeared to have failed. Maybe something did give up the ghost, but regardless, driver should always have a margin for error that will mitigate the (in this case, tragic) results.
I wonder how many trackdays this guy had been on, how much tuition he had sought to help him drive his car. It is clear he spent a lot of time and money making it faster, but I wonder how much time and money he spent on the largest difference to safe vehicle performance, the guy behind then wheel? I genuinely don't know the answer, but I suspect it is somewhat less than he spent on tuning parts.
It is sad, and I feel sorry for the families and friends affected. The only fortunate thing in all this is that there was seemingly no other vehicle involved in a collision etc, and that is of stark comfort to the families etc, I know that. But perhaps the infamy sought by these guys may well be achieved posthumously, and perhaps other people who get themselves caught up in the excitement of a life, forum, trip, stretch of road, or mere corner, will spare a thought for the price paid by these guys and their families...?
RIP chaps.
I think this sums things up rather well...looking at the evidence available they certainly did seem to be playing to the crowd , Both guys appered to have the same mind set , Pity perhaps he didnt have someone with him who maybe was a little less gung ho who may have had a slightly moderating influence on the proccedingsI hate to say it, but this guy does genuinely appear to fit the stereotype of an "accident waiting to happen", a dreadful phrase btw that is misused by every NIMBY and jobsworth out there! But I think he and to a lesser extent his cohort, just got caught up in a roller coaster of buying a quick hatch, tuning a quick hatch, posting all about it, getting adulation from similar minded people, driving it about no doubt inappropriately at times, (some video evidence of that), getting away with that, people thinking they are "Ledgends" etc, and time just ran out for them. It is a shame, they aren't the first and wont be the last, but the comments about if someone similar reads this thread etc, may hold some hope for those behind..
It is interesting, there is mention on seatcupra about mechanical failures on this car, engine and gearbox mountings, and some suggestion parts had previously been fitted that appeared to have failed. Maybe something did give up the ghost, but regardless, driver should always have a margin for error that will mitigate the (in this case, tragic) results.
I wonder how many trackdays this guy had been on, how much tuition he had sought to help him drive his car. It is clear he spent a lot of time and money making it faster, but I wonder how much time and money he spent on the largest difference to safe vehicle performance, the guy behind then wheel? I genuinely don't know the answer, but I suspect it is somewhat less than he spent on tuning parts.
It is sad, and I feel sorry for the families and friends affected. The only fortunate thing in all this is that there was seemingly no other vehicle involved in a collision etc, and that is of stark comfort to the families etc, I know that. But perhaps the infamy sought by these guys may well be achieved posthumously, and perhaps other people who get themselves caught up in the excitement of a life, forum, trip, stretch of road, or mere corner, will spare a thought for the price paid by these guys and their families...?
RIP chaps.
Edited by s3fella on Friday 31st July 10:03
Interesting to note he states in one of his threads that last month he had four engine mounts fail in a matter of four weeks ....
Edited by andrewlea on Friday 31st July 12:22
Edited by andrewlea on Friday 31st July 12:29
I did note that the owner was aware there was a clunk coming from the suspension. It also appears it's not that long since it was all bolted together. If a dogbone or similar let go ? It could explain what happened ?, you could imagine sudden rear wheel steering in that bend could catch anyone out, even if not pushing beyond the limit.
s3fella said:
I'm pretty sure this is merely a case poor driving from someone with lots of confidence hat thinks they are better than they actually are. Looking at the seatcurpa threads, including his "build" thread, I cannot help feeling the guy is somewhat leading the life of someone he is not! And by that I mean he appears to be some self styled motoring journo, everything he does he takes a pic of and posts it up, which is fine in itself, but it can lead one to think they are something they are not perhaps? Perhaps a better vehicle engineer, perhaps a more exhuberant personality, perhaps the seeming adulation that living ones life online like that can bring, makes one think you are a better driver than one really is?
I hate to say it, but this guy does genuinely appear to fit the stereotype of an "accident waiting to happen", a dreadful phrase btw that is misused by every NIMBY and jobsworth out there! But I think he and to a lesser extent his cohort, just got caught up in a roller coaster of buying a quick hatch, tuning a quick hatch, posting all about it, getting adulation from similar minded people, driving it about no doubt inappropriately at times, (some video evidence of that), getting away with that, people thinking they are "Ledgends" etc, and time just ran out for them. It is a shame, they aren't the first and wont be the last, but the comments about if someone similar reads this thread etc, may hold some hope for those behind..
It is interesting, there is mention on seatcupra about mechanical failures on this car, engine and gearbox mountings, and some suggestion parts had previously been fitted that appeared to have failed. Maybe something did give up the ghost, but regardless, driver should always have a margin for error that will mitigate the (in this case, tragic) results.
I wonder how many trackdays this guy had been on, how much tuition he had sought to help him drive his car. It is clear he spent a lot of time and money making it faster, but I wonder how much time and money he spent on the largest difference to safe vehicle performance, the guy behind then wheel? I genuinely don't know the answer, but I suspect it is somewhat less than he spent on tuning parts.
It is sad, and I feel sorry for the families and friends affected. The only fortunate thing in all this is that there was seemingly no other vehicle involved in a collision etc, and that is of stark comfort to the families etc, I know that. But perhaps the infamy sought by these guys may well be achieved posthumously, and perhaps other people who get themselves caught up in the excitement of a life, forum, trip, stretch of road, or mere corner, will spare a thought for the price paid by these guys and their families...?
RIP chaps.
Well said.I hate to say it, but this guy does genuinely appear to fit the stereotype of an "accident waiting to happen", a dreadful phrase btw that is misused by every NIMBY and jobsworth out there! But I think he and to a lesser extent his cohort, just got caught up in a roller coaster of buying a quick hatch, tuning a quick hatch, posting all about it, getting adulation from similar minded people, driving it about no doubt inappropriately at times, (some video evidence of that), getting away with that, people thinking they are "Ledgends" etc, and time just ran out for them. It is a shame, they aren't the first and wont be the last, but the comments about if someone similar reads this thread etc, may hold some hope for those behind..
It is interesting, there is mention on seatcupra about mechanical failures on this car, engine and gearbox mountings, and some suggestion parts had previously been fitted that appeared to have failed. Maybe something did give up the ghost, but regardless, driver should always have a margin for error that will mitigate the (in this case, tragic) results.
I wonder how many trackdays this guy had been on, how much tuition he had sought to help him drive his car. It is clear he spent a lot of time and money making it faster, but I wonder how much time and money he spent on the largest difference to safe vehicle performance, the guy behind then wheel? I genuinely don't know the answer, but I suspect it is somewhat less than he spent on tuning parts.
It is sad, and I feel sorry for the families and friends affected. The only fortunate thing in all this is that there was seemingly no other vehicle involved in a collision etc, and that is of stark comfort to the families etc, I know that. But perhaps the infamy sought by these guys may well be achieved posthumously, and perhaps other people who get themselves caught up in the excitement of a life, forum, trip, stretch of road, or mere corner, will spare a thought for the price paid by these guys and their families...?
RIP chaps.
OpulentBob said:
I'd rather talk about MR2s, than try and be an armchair sleuth because of a Facebook post, and decide whether or not the guys knew they were going to die 0.001 seconds before they burst through the fence and plummeted to their deaths, and trying to see if I could find the last photo of them alive... Your "eerily fascinating" might be seen by others as "gawkishly morbid".
Amidst the reams of content-free white noise that passes for discussion on this forum, this thread stands out as packed with interesting insights and not a small amount of humanity and empathy.Many of us are coming back to this thread because it's a rich conversation about a tragic incident that bears long and detailed reflection.
s3fella said:
ILooking at the seatcurpa threads, including his "build" thread, I cannot help feeling the guy is somewhat leading the life of someone he is not! And by that I mean he appears to be some self styled motoring journo, everything he does he takes a pic of and posts it up, which is fine in itself, but it can lead one to think they are something they are not perhaps? Perhaps a better vehicle engineer, perhaps a more exhuberant personality, perhaps the seeming adulation that living ones life online like that can bring, makes one think you are a better driver than one really is?
Sorry, but I think you're well off base. I too have read his posts and he seems like an enthusiastic, sensible young chap who loved his car, was passionate about modding it and driving it in equal measure, and enjoyed posting about his experiences online. There is nothing of the posturing that you describe. I believe that's why this sad episode has struck a chord with many of us - these lads were just like you and me, and it makes us turn inward and think "there but for the grace of God..."I haven't accused them of posturing., although if you take a look at the videos posted, it's a fair accusation!
You say they are just like you and me, well they ain't like me, nor thousands of others on pistonheads. Which is why ending up driving off an Alp is a relatively rare thing.
You say they are just like you and me, well they ain't like me, nor thousands of others on pistonheads. Which is why ending up driving off an Alp is a relatively rare thing.
s3fella said:
I haven't accused them of posturing., although if you take a look at the videos posted, it's a fair accusation!
You say they are just like you and me, well they ain't like me, nor thousands of others on pistonheads. Which is why ending up driving off an Alp is a relatively rare thing.
Think most of us if honest will see elements of ourselves in them ether now or when younger, anyone who has ever gone out for a blast/ hoon etc has prob gone as fast as they did (not everyone but most in my opinion) only diffrence is they paid a huge price. I for one am reading this sad story and realising how easily I could have found myself in the same position..... Very thought provoking. You say they are just like you and me, well they ain't like me, nor thousands of others on pistonheads. Which is why ending up driving off an Alp is a relatively rare thing.
Looking at the gradient of that hill you can easy see the car going light on the brow and going straight on..... Awful
Rip if you look at the poor lads Facebook page the grief of his family and friends certainly makes you see the mess you can leave behind.
bencollins said:
Only read 5 of the 25 pages but not seen ice/dew/hailstones or combo mentioned?
Top of an alpine pass at 6am plus wind funnelling through that gap.
It's been discounted. It wasn't at the top of the pass, time was c.7:30-7:40 and temp gauge on panorama camera read 14degC IIRC. No evidence of bad weather showing on camera, but I s'pose wind is invisible but would have to be severe to have an influence.Top of an alpine pass at 6am plus wind funnelling through that gap.
I was very lucky when I was younger, I had a lot of close shaves. The first time I spun a car, chasing a BMW in a fiat brava and discovered lift off oversteer. When we got out of the car we noted that the skid mark left by the rear wheels was less than a foot from the kerb and we were doing 60mph+ when we entered the roundabout. It could have gone a lot worse but as it was we laughed about it and drive off.
I think the advantage I had was that I couldn't afford anything with real power so when I did mess up it was at a slower speed.
I did wonder in the early stages of this thread if the outcome had been that they hit the fence and ripped the front suspension etc off rather than falling down the side would it have made a difference to their driving?
I think the advantage I had was that I couldn't afford anything with real power so when I did mess up it was at a slower speed.
I did wonder in the early stages of this thread if the outcome had been that they hit the fence and ripped the front suspension etc off rather than falling down the side would it have made a difference to their driving?
TTmonkey said:
To the people who find 23 pages of a thread like this "distasteful"..... why do you continue to read it, and reply to posts?
Choice. You have it.
mate, new top gears been on the telly 13 years and people still watch every episode then come on here to sob how much they hate it.Choice. You have it.
I daresay this is of quite some interest as many will be wondering if the drivers were a couple of complete strap-ons or they just lucked out, if the latter it's probably a case for many of "there but for the grace of god go I" that makes you contemplate.
Batfink said:
If all they would do is bounce off a fence I bet they would have driven harder. I don't understand why people are debating what mechanical fault could have caused this when its pretty clear they were driving at high speed on unfamiliar roads trying to keep up with a faster car
I tend to agree.It's very very easy to speculate but the simplest solution seems the most likely and they just got caught out.
If you read his forum posts its clear he enjoyed racing on the roads and the fact they were racing other cars/ bikes during the rally was obvious from the facebook vids unfortunately alpine passes you are not familiar with are not the best places to indulge your passion for that sort of driving as was tragically proven , As said its the families left behind who will now suffer for the rest of their lives ..I lost my sister at a young age and my parents have never got over it and never will i guess
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