Hot Hatches or RWD Saloon?

[ORD]

I really dislike lift-off oversteer: coming off the throttle just seems so crude to me, and it is associated far more with slightly skittish FWD cars.

[T0MMY]

kambites said:

Have you tried turning off the ESP?

Older BMWs (everything up to the E46 era) will certainly do it. I can't say I've tried in an E90 onwards car but I'm surprised if they wont? Even if they've programmed to ECU to force the car to under-steer at the limit off throttle (which they may have done as a result of chasing economy figures) some gentle trail braking should bring the back gracefully out.

To my mind a car which wont lift-off over-steer reasonably progressively is extremely poorly balanced. Even my parents little Picanto will do it in the wet.

None of my BMWs had ESP, E30s and E36s

You could be right as I've not spent enough time in the newer ones to know but I'd be surprised if they were as neutral as all that. Few car manufacturers want a car that will lose grip at the rear too easily as it's far less intuitive to save than understeer for people that have literally not the first clue what to do. If my gran lost control of her car in any way her first reaction would be to slow down by lifting or braking which is obviously the right thing to do with understeer but the wrong thing to do with oversteer.

Again I should clarify, I'm not talking about violent transitions so maybe LOOS is the wrong term as that brings to mind lurid slides in 205 Gtis. What I mean is the ability to tighten the line gently and I just cannot believe if you were going briskly round a corner in a BMW and gently lifted you'd really get that, you'd probably just get less understeer, like my crappy company Astra does. Any more would just be considered too dangerous for the non-sports models imo.

ORD said:

I really dislike lift-off oversteer: coming off the throttle just seems so crude to me, and it is associated far more with slightly skittish FWD cars.

You're not always on the thottle are you. I really think you're misunderstanding what I mean, we're not talking big angle slides. Why would you want a car that only lets you have understeer or a bit less understeer, no matter what you do with the weight balance? It's just one less element of control you have over the car's behaviour.

Edited by T0MMY on Sunday 26th July 12:27

[T0MMY]

doogz said:

You get to a corner. You're going a little bit too quick. You turn in, and the front starts to understeer because you're going to fast, and asking too much of it.

What do you do?

Bury the throttle apparently

[LowiePete]

Oversteer, understeer, pfffft. I'll choose my 4 wheel steer and drive
around as if on rails Tighter turning circle than a Renault Clio?
I'll take that too...

Regards,
Steve

[T0MMY]

doogz said:

Because cars with 4WD don't ever slide?

The ease with which I could get the back sliding was one of the best things about my 4WS car!

My Xsara VTS had passive 4WS and that was nicely neutral and would indeed go into slides very easily, probably a bit too easily

[Toltec]

doogz said:

You get to a corner. You're going a little bit too quick. You turn in, and the front starts to understeer because you're going too fast, and asking too much of it.

What do you do?

Take a little lock off and see if the tyres will hook back up and tighten the line.

Take more lock off and brake, this will shed some speed and allow you to turn in a bit later.

If you have totally stuffed it brake hard, at worst that will minimise the speed you hit the landscape at best you might just be able to stay on the road.

Depends if you are good enough to balance the car's attitude on the brakes and steering, though if you were you would not have got the car out of shape in the first place.

My wife's e46 is adjustable on the brakes, leaving a little brake on through turn in dials out under steer nicely. Being an auto means it is less throttle adjustable, it does not under steer on power, but then I don't let it get into under steer in the first place.

[V8RX7]

Given the rather crappy choice given in the OP, if the BMW could be an old one, E30 or a modified E36 - I'd take the BMW.

If it had to be a newer one which are too heavy and too insulated from driving then I'd take anything else - the utter who thought clutch delay valves and electronic throttles etc were a good idea clearly has never driven a decent car.

Given a little more choice I'd take an MX5 - preferably my supercharged one but a good standard one is just as much fun on a clear road.

If it was a one off drive and it was warm then a Caterfield is the most fun this side of a motorbike.

[ORD]

doogz said:

You get to a corner. You're going a little bit too quick. You turn in, and the front starts to understeer because you're going too fast, and asking too much of it.

What do you do?

I would rather brake than lift off alone, to be honest. I would probably just unwind the lock a bit before doing either.

If you simply mean that a car should tighten its line if you scrub off speed in a corner, I agree. But I would call that reducing understeer, rather than causing oversteer (although exactly the same thing is happening, I guess )

[V8RX7]

ORD said:

I really dislike lift-off oversteer: coming off the throttle just seems so crude to me, and it is associated far more with slightly skittish FWD cars.

Me too, you can't lift off a bit, nor progressively, it's like a RWD car only having a throttle switch - on/off

[ORD]

V8RX7 said:

Me too, you can't lift off a bit, nor progressively, it's like a RWD car only having a throttle switch - on/off

Hilarious. It's Internet hard men like you that make PH a lesser place.

[V8RX7]

ORD said:

V8RX7 said:

Me too, you can't lift off a bit, nor progressively, it's like a RWD car only having a throttle switch - on/off

Hilarious. It's Internet hard men like you that make PH a lesser place.

1) Why is it hilarious ?

2) How is it hard ?

3) If that's how you react when people agree with you, what do you do when they disagree ?

[s m]

Batfink said:

A friend of mine built himself a peugeot 205 with a supercharged 2.0 16v engine in. Currently pumping out about 240bhp and quite frankly is scary fast in any situation you put it in. The suspension was chosen to keep traction on the bumpy B roads and overall I think its one of the fastest point to point cars I've driven. FWD can sucessfully be over 200bhp with the right combination of parts including an LSD.

Theres not really a new RWD saloon that can match the smallish size and weight. Half the technique of driving small twisty roads is carrying momentum through the corners. Saloons fall into the next size up so its a bit more difficult. The BMW M1 might be a good contender. Its not really small though so I think its retro time again. E30 M3. thin and light enough to navigate the small roads, setup from the factory for hooning. For those saying 6 pot minimum for RWD they can have the 325 and be slower

That 205 sounds like good fun - years back a good friend had a 205 Dimma with a Sprintex'd engine - it was about 180-190bhp and was great on the Welsh Roads ( including the Brecon roads that were mentioned at the beginning of the thread )



Back in the 80s it was very fast, even amongst the sporty cars of the times - I bet your friend's car with another lump of power above that is similarly fast and fun

I must admit I quite like to have a warm/hot hatch available to drive even though I grew up when a high proportion of people used to drive a rwd car and hot hatches were only just starting to be fwd. I've always had a fwd car since then but I've also had a rwd car and the ones I've chosen have always been enjoyable to drive for me at least. As of now I've got a fwd warm hatch, a rwd hatch and a rwd 4-door saloon although it's an older one with smaller proportions and lighter weight than most modern hot hatches - I think you're right about some of the more modern saloons being too wide and heavy to give the same experience as an older car

If I was heading up the Beacons today I'd probably take my 4-dr saloon today - next week it might be a little Fwd hatch -they're both fun

neil-935ql said:

I had a mk2 escort with a 2 litre Zetec on throttle bodies about 190bhp not massive power , but on reflection this car gave the perfect balance of the feel of a hot hatch , light and agile maybe 900kg ? loads of fun but also rwd , so just maybe this is the perfect mix ?? I guess the gt86 is trying the same formula but some how for me has missed the point needs a tad more power , wish I never sold it now ........ Any ex mk2 escort owners out there ?

Yes, had a few Mk2 Escorts back in the 80s - they were a great size for the roads I like - could seat 4 people in and quite narrow ( that pic of the 205 above is from my old Xflow Mk2 - looked a bit rough but went well with a 1760 )

I guess they're not safe enough for most people to be a viable proposition but I really enjoyed them compared to the smaller 2-seater sporty cars of the time. I've tried an MX5 and they're ok but some of the older cars I've owned have been just as fun for me. Maybe I'll build an updated Escort when this classic car bubble "bursts" as all the experts tell us every year

[otolith]

A well-handling car, rear or front drive, should allow you to tighten or widen the trajectory with the throttle if the car is set up right for the corner. In extremis, that includes moving into oversteer if you deliberately (or incompetently) poke it with a stick. It's not at all unusual for rear drivers to behave exactly like front drivers under weight transfer and below the point at which power oversteer is induced (ie, more throttle, up to a point, increases understeer and less removes it).

[ORD]

V8RX7 said:

1) Why is it hilarious ?

2) How is it hard ?

3) If that's how you react when people agree with you, what do you do when they disagree ?

Oh. I am sorry. I thought you were being sarcastic! I was confused myself.

[T0MMY]

V8RX7 said:

Me too, you can't lift off a bit, nor progressively, it's like a RWD car only having a throttle switch - on/off

I'm really not sure why you'd ever want a driver's car to not be able to spin if you don't balance it well enough. I mean obviously I can from a safety perspective but from a fun perspective you want to have to balance the car surely? Same reason you'll have more fun without ABS, or stability control or traction control or anything else that takes responsibility away from the driver. Put it this way, would a trackday be more fun if the cars ran on rails and you just had to press the throttle down?

Not saying you want a car that's undriveable but you want to have full control over the thing.

Edited by T0MMY on Sunday 26th July 19:49

[heebeegeetee]

Right, here's a little challenge:

Can anyone show me a clip of film showing a good dab of oppo being employed during a hoon on a normal road?

I don't mean sliding slowly round a roundabout in a shed of a BMW surrounded by braying chavs; I don't mean a set-up on a road test where both sides of the road are used; I don't mean anything involving a track.

Imo a decent hoon will involve cornering at speeds possibly well over the speed limit for that road. In some 15 mins of trying I can't find any clips of film showing a good dab of oppo used on a normal hoon whilst either keeping the car on the correct side of the road or where visibility shows that both sides of the road can be used.

I've found a rwd understeering straight off the road here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=az_Vlgy5dbM

Apparently lift-off oversteer here involving an awd: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZn1a9UpWCM

Snap oversteer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTHmA5wmviA "Thanks to many years of experience in driving, I was able to avoid hitting the wall."

Similar, at 1 min. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68giXz-zQvA

Snap oversteer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-LfMlm0QkE

I can find vids of low speed oversteer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZC4oMAkKHs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i4HvfbtWoM (in 2nd gear, I noticed).

I can find understeer (as well as oversteer, obviously) on these rwd cars on this track test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68giXz-zQvA (Question: What is Touge?)

Enjoyed this vid of a nippy MX5 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktcolke_SHY (Little evidence of oversteer though).

But I can't find any vids showing enjoyable use of oversteer on the roads of the sort that might be employed on a hoon.

Anyone?

[V8RX7]

T0MMY said:

I'm really not sure why you'd ever want a driver's car to not be able to spin if you don't balance it well enough. I mean obviously I can from a safety perspective but from a fun perspective you want to have to balance the car surely? Same reason you'll have more fun without ABS, or stability control or traction control or anything else that takes responsibility away from the driver. Put it this way, would a trackday be more fun if the cars ran on rails and you just had to press the throttle down?

Not saying you want a car that's undriveable but you want to have full control over the thing.

EXACTLY !

I want FULL CONTROL, drive to the rear wheels and a throttle cable give me that, with lift off oversteer you don't have the same control - how many drift cars are FWD ?

With FWD you only have a set amount of momentum to exploit, with RWD you can balance it and hold it out as long as you want.

Look at Rallying - the best and most skillfully driven cars were RWD.

Edited by V8RX7 on Monday 27th July 11:57

[otolith]

heebeegeetee said:

But I can't find any vids showing enjoyable use of oversteer on the roads of the sort that might be employed on a hoon.

It's like masturbation - you shouldn't be doing it where anyone can see you, and putting footage on YouTube could end badly.

[kiseca]

otolith said:

heebeegeetee said:

But I can't find any vids showing enjoyable use of oversteer on the roads of the sort that might be employed on a hoon.

It's like masturbation - you shouldn't be doing it where anyone can see you, and putting footage on YouTube could end badly.

Well, there was that eastern european guy with the E34 M5, and that certainly ended badly.

I agree with Heebeegeetee though. Opportunities to safely enjoy a car's balance over the limit of grip on a b-road are vanishingly rare. Get it six inches wrong and you drop a wheel in a ditch and then the rest of the car follows. Or you have a motorcyclist entering through the side window or a horse through the windscreen.

On the public road, how a car entertains at 7 tenths is more important than what it does at 11 tenths IMO. On a smooth track, yeah, balance and adjustability are important.

[otolith]

Opportunities for lurid oversteer are rare. Opportunities to trim the car on the throttle are more common.