Hot Hatches or RWD Saloon?
Discussion
otolith said:
It's like masturbation - you shouldn't be doing it where anyone can see you, and putting footage on YouTube could end badly.
Yet there seems to be about a bazillion such videos on the internet, if that's your thing. 
I might as well come to the point - as I've said, I think there's an enormous about of BS regarding rwd. I say people are flicking into dabs of oppo at speed as an option during cornering. What we are doing is trimming the attitude of the car ever so slightly, 'cos that's all that's available to us, pretty much.
Back in my hot hatch days I was aware that a flick off-on of the throttle could nuetralise the car really nicely, meaning I'd be cornering at speed with wheels pointing dead ahead, and I think that's possibly more or at least equal to anything anyone is managing with rwd.
Large bhp might allow more than this, and I do think rwd cars require more bhp to go down a road as fast as a good hot hatch.
But it's why I ask - there's a paucity of video evidence backing up all the talk imo, but I'd be happy to be proved wrong.
Not to sound like a fawning wannabe Journalist but you don't have to be sideways to enjoy the feeling of RWD over FWD. Despite what people are saying there is a very noticeable difference as soon as you pull away. Take the DC2. I'd say it's one of the best due to it's torque curve, even so the steering still tramlines and on occasion wants to run wide. You just have more control with RWD and a much nicer feeling of when the car is 'settled' before winding on the power. Having all the torque independent of the front wheels just feels nicer. I loved that DC2 and point to point it was devastating, but, the first time I drove a Caterham and the back slipped just a little I was hooked. In the dry a good FWD car that bites into the turn in is fun, but not in the same league. These days with hefty turbocharged cars you just get this bland feeling as all the linkages are designed to kill the torque steer. They're quick and very powerful but for me, a bit boring.
heebeegeetee said:
I think there's an enormous about of BS regarding rwd. I say people are flicking into dabs of oppo at speed as an option during cornering. What we are doing is trimming the attitude of the car ever so slightly, 'cos that's all that's available to us, pretty much.
Back in my hot hatch days I was aware that a flick off-on of the throttle could nuetralise the car really nicely, meaning I'd be cornering at speed with wheels pointing dead ahead, and I think that's possibly more or at least equal to anything anyone is managing with rwd.
Large bhp might allow more than this, and I do think rwd cars require more bhp to go down a road as fast as a good hot hatch.
I'm amazed you say that having had an SC MX5 - I bought it off you and I'd guess it was making 160bhp, after a bit of fettling it was around 200bhp with vastly better response and believe me it steered beautifully on the throttle.Back in my hot hatch days I was aware that a flick off-on of the throttle could nuetralise the car really nicely, meaning I'd be cornering at speed with wheels pointing dead ahead, and I think that's possibly more or at least equal to anything anyone is managing with rwd.
Large bhp might allow more than this, and I do think rwd cars require more bhp to go down a road as fast as a good hot hatch.
I've owned 205 1.9 GTi both standard and with Mi16 conversions, Mk1 & II Golf Gti std and with 2 litre TSR conversions and they don't give you the range of options an SC MX5 does.
It would depend on the road/track which was quicker - my 180bhp MK1 Golf embarrassed some serious road cars at Curborough but my 240bhp MX5 is definitely faster and infinitely more fun.
blearyeyedboy said:
I'm interested to know what people would answer to the following question:
You have a trip across the Brecon Beacons and you're not in a hurry, so you can make detours to have as much fun as you like.
Easy..You have a trip across the Brecon Beacons and you're not in a hurry, so you can make detours to have as much fun as you like.
A mapped one of these:
Or this JE one if you are a bit more flushed with cash:
More grins than any hot hatch, can leave the tarmac and see over hedges/walls. And still a hoot to hustle.
doogz said:
300bhp/ton said:
blearyeyedboy said:
I'm interested to know what people would answer to the following question:
You have a trip across the Brecon Beacons and you're not in a hurry, so you can make detours to have as much fun as you like.
Easy..You have a trip across the Brecon Beacons and you're not in a hurry, so you can make detours to have as much fun as you like.
A mapped one of these:
Or this JE one if you are a bit more flushed with cash:
More grins than any hot hatch, can leave the tarmac and see over hedges/walls. And still a hoot to hustle.
300bhp is back!Before this thread gets wildely derailed by ludicrous suggestions ill add my 2p.
I hate driving FWD cars fast, i never trust them. After having some seriously big moments in my late teens in a couple of FWD hatches i cant stand them. One car had a full alignment and new tyres and still tried to kill me one wet evening.
I have an MX5 now and find it massively predicable and can put my trust in driving it fast. Never had a big moment in the 5 as its too easy to control on the limit.
In the future i'll always try to have RWD.
I hate driving FWD cars fast, i never trust them. After having some seriously big moments in my late teens in a couple of FWD hatches i cant stand them. One car had a full alignment and new tyres and still tried to kill me one wet evening.
I have an MX5 now and find it massively predicable and can put my trust in driving it fast. Never had a big moment in the 5 as its too easy to control on the limit.
In the future i'll always try to have RWD.
V8RX7 said:
EXACTLY !
I want FULL CONTROL, drive to the rear wheels and a throttle cable give me that, with lift off oversteer you don't have the same control - how many drift cars are FWD ?
With FWD you only have a set amount of momentum to exploit, with RWD you can balance it and hold it out as long as you want.
Look at Rallying - the best and most skillfully driven cars were RWD.
Hang on, I wasn't arguing that FWD was better than RWD at all, nor that lift off oversteer is "better" than power oversteer.I want FULL CONTROL, drive to the rear wheels and a throttle cable give me that, with lift off oversteer you don't have the same control - how many drift cars are FWD ?
With FWD you only have a set amount of momentum to exploit, with RWD you can balance it and hold it out as long as you want.
Look at Rallying - the best and most skillfully driven cars were RWD.
I was saying that a car should be neutral enough to go into oversteer off the throttle, whether it be front or rear wheel drive. If it doesn't do that you don't have control over the full range of attitudes the car can adopt in a corner, you can just have understeer or less understeer, and there is no advantage to that beyond safety for inexperienced drivers.
A RWD with a sedate handling balance that only oversteers with a big dollop of throttle is to me a less rewarding drive than a FWD that has a lively balance. To me it's the defining feature of whether a car is "sporty" to drive. A RWD with a nice neutral balance is the optimum though, I much prefer a good RWD but not if it's stodgy.
Edited by T0MMY on Monday 27th July 17:47
heebeegeetee said:
Right, here's a little challenge:
Can anyone show me a clip of film showing a good dab of oppo being employed during a hoon on a normal road?
Most people are not silly enough to post such videos but if a corner is clear enough to see around with no one in sight then I don't see any more harm in it than there already was in driving fast, assuming you know what you're doing to the extent you're not out of control.Can anyone show me a clip of film showing a good dab of oppo being employed during a hoon on a normal road?
lukefreeman said:
Lotus Elise.
Why someone would want a MX5 over a sorted FWD is beyond me.
Well because to me, a "sorted FWD" is one that has that nice neutral balance, but an MX5 has that balance plus RWD so is the optimum for fun handling IMO. Of course if the relative lack of power bothers you then you won't like an MX5 but that's a different story.Why someone would want a MX5 over a sorted FWD is beyond me.
My Xsara VTS was probably the best hot hatch of its generation (more well known in 306 gti6 guise of course) and was more fun than many RWDs...but it wasn't more fun than my MX5.
V8RX7 said:
EXACTLY !
I want FULL CONTROL, drive to the rear wheels and a throttle cable give me that, with lift off oversteer you don't have the same control - how many drift cars are FWD ?
With FWD you only have a set amount of momentum to exploit, with RWD you can balance it and hold it out as long as you want.
Look at Rallying - the best and most skillfully driven cars were RWD.
If we stick to tarmac and the type of road I think the OP was discussing then I'll bite. I say 306 maxi F2000. I grew up with 80's hot hatches. You can exploit the lift off oversteer trait without looking like a RWD drift car (probably the slowest and most dramatic way to go round a corner in Motorsport!) You want to turn the nose in early using a little controlled weight transfer forward to limit your power understeer out the corner. If its getting too dramatic (which it shouldnt on the road and if you have a balanced throttle) then you have the option to bury the throttle to pull the car back into control. You could even use a little left foot braking to turn the car in sharper but I never have played with that to train the foot well enough for my liking.I want FULL CONTROL, drive to the rear wheels and a throttle cable give me that, with lift off oversteer you don't have the same control - how many drift cars are FWD ?
With FWD you only have a set amount of momentum to exploit, with RWD you can balance it and hold it out as long as you want.
Look at Rallying - the best and most skillfully driven cars were RWD.
Edited by V8RX7 on Monday 27th July 11:57
Batfink said:
I grew up with 80's hot hatches.
You can exploit the lift off oversteer trait without looking like a RWD drift car (probably the slowest and most dramatic way to go round a corner in Motorsport!)
Mine were mostly 90's You can exploit the lift off oversteer trait without looking like a RWD drift car (probably the slowest and most dramatic way to go round a corner in Motorsport!)
You don't have to go full drift - it's just that the option is there.
Also the most fun you can have in a car !
lukefreeman said:
Lotus Elise.
Why someone would want a MX5 over a sorted FWD is beyond me.
Personally I think its steering feel. I love the feel of the front wheels doing their thing without having to cope with the extra mass over the front axle, and the forces being applied via the engine.Why someone would want a MX5 over a sorted FWD is beyond me.
My personal view is the FWD hatches weight balance is critical though to give the right steering feel. I think for a FWD it needs to be near 60% weight on the front, with the right chassis setup to exploit it. Its what I hated about the 205 GTI as the 205 XS and 309 GTI are far superior handling cars (without the glory)
V8RX7 said:
1. I'm amazed you say that having had an SC MX5 - I bought it off you and I'd guess it was making 160bhp, after a bit of fettling it was around 200bhp with vastly better response and believe me it steered beautifully on the throttle.
2. I've owned 205 1.9 GTi both standard and with Mi16 conversions, Mk1 & II Golf Gti std and with 2 litre TSR conversions and they don't give you the range of options an SC MX5 does.
3. It would depend on the road/track which was quicker - my 180bhp MK1 Golf embarrassed some serious road cars at Curborough but my 240bhp MX5 is definitely faster and infinitely more fun.
Wow, hi there. 2. I've owned 205 1.9 GTi both standard and with Mi16 conversions, Mk1 & II Golf Gti std and with 2 litre TSR conversions and they don't give you the range of options an SC MX5 does.
3. It would depend on the road/track which was quicker - my 180bhp MK1 Golf embarrassed some serious road cars at Curborough but my 240bhp MX5 is definitely faster and infinitely more fun.
1. My old MX5 wan't always 160 bhp, all it took normally was an adjustment of ignition timing to turn it one way or another. I was plagued a little with pinking at 190 bhp (which is where I thought it was at the maximum I had it). The pinking would seem to come and go, for reasons I never took the time to properly find out. I agree, the car was a little neglected when I sold it, sadly, cos it was a fun little machine (both SC and NA).
I'm a little surprised at your comment of steering beautifully on the throttle because it was open diff. Furthermore, when it was at 190 bhp I found it just spun the inner wheel away far too easily. In fact, personally I found the rear end more playful with less power, with more, as I say, it induced inner wheel spin far too easily.
I have footage of me somehwere in the Alps, and you can gear the inner wheel spinning. I don;t have footage of me applying goods dabs of oppo at speed, and I can't seem to find any of anyone else doing it either.
2. That also surprises me a little - I had a Renault 5 GT Turbo back in the day, and I thought that was terrific, and far more playful on the throttle without requiring large bhp than pretty much anything more modern. More modern cars have far more grip and everything is happening a lot faster and personally I think it takes too much effort to get the back out on the public road at speed, which is possibly why, although people talk about it a lot, there seems to be very little evidence of it.
A few years back I road rallied for a spell. The 205 was the most popular car it seemed, after 400bhp Imprezas. Indeed it seemed to me that the 205 replaced the rwd Escort as the staple of club motorsport.
Without going into it too much, I don't think anyone will ever drive faster on the public road than on a road rally - at night, with powerful spots, and co driver who is able to give you half a clue of what's coming up. After midnight the lanes can be absolutely *deserted*, and I really mean that. At times you drive as fast as you can and live by your wits, we had some terrific times.
Not many used rwd. There were reasons other than control - rwds tend to have longer bonnets, longer overhangs, you might sit lower than you do with shopping car cabin architecture the hatchbacks tended to give greater visibility with larger glass area - think 205 v 3 series and you might be able to see what I mean. Imprezas and hatchbacks would make up 95% of the field, I'd suggest.
3. Yes, on a track or even on a stage with pace notes, when you know where you're going I'd always want rwd too, pretty much. I quite like the Clios though 'cos they tend to dominate the <2 litre classes plus it's nice to travel to and from events in the car you're competing in, which can then be pressed into no end of other family duties if need be.
If you can't get some degree of lift-off over-steer (in any car), you don't have "full control" - you're missing a fundamental element of chassis balance. The only cars I've ever driven which genuinely wont generate any rear axle slip coming off the throttle are those with ridiculously over-zealous ESP systems. One of the things which marks a truly great RWD chassis is the ability to transition from over- to under- and back to over-steer again in complete control with one smooth throttle transition.
Edited by kambites on Monday 27th July 18:43
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