Hot Hatches or RWD Saloon?
Discussion
SirSquidalot said:
Before this thread gets wildely derailed by ludicrous suggestions ill add my 2p.
I hate driving FWD cars fast, i never trust them. After having some seriously big moments in my late teens in a couple of FWD hatches i cant stand them. One car had a full alignment and new tyres and still tried to kill me one wet evening.
I have an MX5 now and find it massively predicable and can put my trust in driving it fast. Never had a big moment in the 5 as its too easy to control on the limit.
In the future i'll always try to have RWD.
It's the imbalance of fwd that I actually liked. I think it's what can make them more fun, and what allows them to change attitude more quickly imo.I hate driving FWD cars fast, i never trust them. After having some seriously big moments in my late teens in a couple of FWD hatches i cant stand them. One car had a full alignment and new tyres and still tried to kill me one wet evening.
I have an MX5 now and find it massively predicable and can put my trust in driving it fast. Never had a big moment in the 5 as its too easy to control on the limit.
In the future i'll always try to have RWD.
T0MMY said:
Most people are not silly enough to post such videos but if a corner is clear enough to see around with no one in sight then I don't see any more harm in it than there already was in driving fast, assuming you know what you're doing to the extent you're not out of control.
I'm afraid I don't buy that at all. Let's be absolutely honest, everything gets posted on the internet. We can even talk about the dark side, if you're into kiddy fiddling or shagging animals, it's all out there. Gore films and all the rest of it. I can't see how there is anything that people aren't posting.There must be footage of people hanging the arse out in full utter driving god mode on the road if that's what they're doing. I'm sceptical though. I must have been on enough hoons and enough road rallies and events and so on. Curborough has a hairpin where people can get a slide on, rarely very quickly though. Shelsey has the top Ess where again, people might get the rear out very briefly still at quite a low speed, second gear at most possibly.
Where are these 3rd and 4th gear slides guys, come on?
On road I think all we're doing is making minor adjustments to the attitude of the car. I'm saying the talk is not matching the reality, I'm afraid.
(Dons flame suit).
heebeegeetee said:
I'm afraid I don't buy that at all. Let's be absolutely honest, everything gets posted on the internet. We can even talk about the dark side, if you're into kiddy fiddling or shagging animals, it's all out there. Gore films and all the rest of it. I can't see how there is anything that people aren't posting.
There must be footage of people hanging the arse out in full utter driving god mode on the road if that's what they're doing. I'm sceptical though. I must have been on enough hoons and enough road rallies and events and so on. Curborough has a hairpin where people can get a slide on, rarely very quickly though. Shelsey has the top Ess where again, people might get the rear out very briefly still at quite a low speed, second gear at most possibly.
Where are these 3rd and 4th gear slides guys, come on?
On road I think all we're doing is making minor adjustments to the attitude of the car. I'm saying the talk is not matching the reality, I'm afraid.
(Dons flame suit).
Well there's always this well known (now dead) idiot:-There must be footage of people hanging the arse out in full utter driving god mode on the road if that's what they're doing. I'm sceptical though. I must have been on enough hoons and enough road rallies and events and so on. Curborough has a hairpin where people can get a slide on, rarely very quickly though. Shelsey has the top Ess where again, people might get the rear out very briefly still at quite a low speed, second gear at most possibly.
Where are these 3rd and 4th gear slides guys, come on?
On road I think all we're doing is making minor adjustments to the attitude of the car. I'm saying the talk is not matching the reality, I'm afraid.
(Dons flame suit).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATl0EqyLO9U
Thing is you're asking people to risk serious trouble just to wave their willies around...the thing you've got to think is, if people can throw their cars around on track, they're able to do it on the road too but you'd have to be seriously stupid to video it.
heebeegeetee said:
I'm a little surprised at your comment of steering beautifully on the throttle because it was open diff. Furthermore, when it was at 190 bhp I found it just spun the inner wheel away far too easily.
I had a Renault 5 GT Turbo back in the day, and I thought that was terrific, and far more playful on the throttle without requiring large bhp than pretty much anything more modern. More modern cars have far more grip and everything is happening a lot faster and personally I think it takes too much effort to get the back out on the public road at speed
A few years back I road rallied for a spell. The 205 was the most popular car it seemed, after 400bhp Imprezas. Indeed it seemed to me that the 205 replaced the rwd Escort as the staple of club motorsport.
It's been a while and I've played with many MX5's so if it had an open diff when I bought it, it certainly didn't have it for long - my god you missed out, an LSD transforms them (assuming you like oversteer)I had a Renault 5 GT Turbo back in the day, and I thought that was terrific, and far more playful on the throttle without requiring large bhp than pretty much anything more modern. More modern cars have far more grip and everything is happening a lot faster and personally I think it takes too much effort to get the back out on the public road at speed
A few years back I road rallied for a spell. The 205 was the most popular car it seemed, after 400bhp Imprezas. Indeed it seemed to me that the 205 replaced the rwd Escort as the staple of club motorsport.
I hate most modern stuff, 90's is the best period IMO, anything over 1250kg is too heavy to be flickable.
Only because FWD is what the kids are used to, is cheaper and more available and generally more forgiving. I had loads of Mk1 and II Escorts from 220bhp triple carb V6 to 260bhp NA 2.4 Cosworth - they were relatively cheap at the time and great fun.
I've had two imprezas but never for long as I find myself going too fast, as they aren't fun until well over NSL limits. I currently have a 280bhp 2.5 XT Forester, very competent but completely dull at any speed - unfortunately I can't fit the family and dog in an MX5 or RX7.
The Forester would be probably be quicker and safer on a night rally - but I'd still take one of my Mazdas.
SirSquidalot said:
Before this thread gets wildely derailed by ludicrous suggestions ill add my 2p.
I hate driving FWD cars fast, i never trust them. After having some seriously big moments in my late teens in a couple of FWD hatches i cant stand them. One car had a full alignment and new tyres and still tried to kill me one wet evening.
I have an MX5 now and find it massively predicable and can put my trust in driving it fast. Never had a big moment in the 5 as its too easy to control on the limit.
In the future i'll always try to have RWD.
How can you drive an mx5 fast? it has no power , try a car with proper bhp then see how you get on , mx5 is just a learner car , still at least you can stay within the speed limits , dull looking car , dull driving experience I hate driving FWD cars fast, i never trust them. After having some seriously big moments in my late teens in a couple of FWD hatches i cant stand them. One car had a full alignment and new tyres and still tried to kill me one wet evening.
I have an MX5 now and find it massively predicable and can put my trust in driving it fast. Never had a big moment in the 5 as its too easy to control on the limit.
In the future i'll always try to have RWD.
Dunno what an mx-5 is like with an open diff, ours had a torsen and was fairly oversteery if you wanted it to be. Apart from the Elise all the performance cars I've spent any amount of time in have had a limited slip diff. The Lotus will spin an inside wheel up under power. It can certainly be made to oversteer if you want it to, but unless on ice it needs a lift to kick it off. Lotus prefer it that way - apparently an lsd causes more understeer.
yonex said:
Not to sound like a fawning wannabe Journalist but you don't have to be sideways to enjoy the feeling of RWD over FWD. Despite what people are saying there is a very noticeable difference as soon as you pull away. Take the DC2. I'd say it's one of the best due to it's torque curve, even so the steering still tramlines and on occasion wants to run wide. You just have more control with RWD and a much nicer feeling of when the car is 'settled' before winding on the power. Having all the torque independent of the front wheels just feels nicer. I loved that DC2 and point to point it was devastating, but, the first time I drove a Caterham and the back slipped just a little I was hooked. In the dry a good FWD car that bites into the turn in is fun, but not in the same league. These days with hefty turbocharged cars you just get this bland feeling as all the linkages are designed to kill the torque steer. They're quick and very powerful but for me, a bit boring.
tramline from a fwd as opposed to rwd? Have you ever driven a rwd car in the slow lane on a motorway? The OPs choice leaves fwd as the only answer.
DoubleTime said:
tramline from a fwd as opposed to rwd? Have you ever driven a rwd car in the slow lane on a motorway? The OPs choice leaves fwd as the only answer.
Personally, I'm with about the 4th poster in - the answer to this question, is a RWD Hot Hatch. Preferably with 6 cylinders under the bonnest, but if you can only manage 4, that's probably OK as well.
Nothing FWD though, as unless you want to stop off at Tesco on the way home, they're just a bit wrong. They're sort of like diesels - they get the job done, just not very well.
Once bought a fastidiously maintained, rot-free E36 318is for £695- was a total revelation.
Bigger and heavier than most of the hatches discussed, 1.9 4-cyl lump only put out ~140horsepowers. Sweet RWD chassis impressed, manual box snicked through every gear in a satisfying manner, modestly powered (M44 iirc?) engine was completely adequate and frugal as heck.
Other than a mk1 MX5 (absolutely the right answer here, and I've owned two of 'em as well as a number of hot hatches) the E36 318is is a fantastic thing, and a very pleasant surprise. E36 328 is obviously the one to have, but we've talked it up so much on here (coupled with the 'drift tax') it's become hard to come by a decent/ sensibly priced one. It's also got 2 more cylinders than permitted by OPs' criteria.
318is is also one of the few cars (MX5s included) that I found impossible to break, no matter how much I skidded about like a silly sausage/ enthusiastic driver. The only cheap car Ive ever owned that required no more than a piece of tin foil to get through its' MOT (bad bulb connection in the rear light cluster). I mean really, I bought it as a sheddy commuter and ended up deriving genuine driving pleasure from it. Just take my word for it and effing buy one, it's better than a Clio (disclaimer: not necessarily in an objective sense).
The only other thing that comes close from personal ownership experience is the Z3, although the early 4-cyl cars look a bit 'loose butthole' (thankyou Workaholics) on account of being pre-facelift narrow-bodies. Find a post-facelift with the wide rear arches (achievable on a budget) and you have a rather spiffing, more refined alternative to the MX5. It's probably my imagination (and God knows PHers will tell me), but the Z3 is gradually becoming less effette/ naff.
Be aware that owning a Z3 does make you more suggestible to the advances of homosexual men, but will not actually 'turn' you when used in isolation. Bear (pardon the pun) in mind that many confirmed p*ofs also drive hot hatches- a statistically significant correlation between Z3/ hair salon ownership is yet to be proven in any peer-reviewed article.
Bigger and heavier than most of the hatches discussed, 1.9 4-cyl lump only put out ~140horsepowers. Sweet RWD chassis impressed, manual box snicked through every gear in a satisfying manner, modestly powered (M44 iirc?) engine was completely adequate and frugal as heck.
Other than a mk1 MX5 (absolutely the right answer here, and I've owned two of 'em as well as a number of hot hatches) the E36 318is is a fantastic thing, and a very pleasant surprise. E36 328 is obviously the one to have, but we've talked it up so much on here (coupled with the 'drift tax') it's become hard to come by a decent/ sensibly priced one. It's also got 2 more cylinders than permitted by OPs' criteria.
318is is also one of the few cars (MX5s included) that I found impossible to break, no matter how much I skidded about like a silly sausage/ enthusiastic driver. The only cheap car Ive ever owned that required no more than a piece of tin foil to get through its' MOT (bad bulb connection in the rear light cluster). I mean really, I bought it as a sheddy commuter and ended up deriving genuine driving pleasure from it. Just take my word for it and effing buy one, it's better than a Clio (disclaimer: not necessarily in an objective sense).
The only other thing that comes close from personal ownership experience is the Z3, although the early 4-cyl cars look a bit 'loose butthole' (thankyou Workaholics) on account of being pre-facelift narrow-bodies. Find a post-facelift with the wide rear arches (achievable on a budget) and you have a rather spiffing, more refined alternative to the MX5. It's probably my imagination (and God knows PHers will tell me), but the Z3 is gradually becoming less effette/ naff.
Be aware that owning a Z3 does make you more suggestible to the advances of homosexual men, but will not actually 'turn' you when used in isolation. Bear (pardon the pun) in mind that many confirmed p*ofs also drive hot hatches- a statistically significant correlation between Z3/ hair salon ownership is yet to be proven in any peer-reviewed article.
DoubleTime said:
tramline from a fwd as opposed to rwd? Have you ever driven a rwd car in the slow lane on a motorway? The OPs choice leaves fwd as the only answer.
neil-935ql said:
How can you drive an mx5 fast? it has no power , try a car with proper bhp then see how you get on , mx5 is just a learner car , still at least you can stay within the speed limits , dull looking car , dull driving experience
I take it you have a focus RS from your profile pic? Have you ever timed yourself on any circuits and have some laptimes to share? Just curious how much faster you can go in it than a well driven MX5 when there are frequent corners involved.Unless I've misunderstood you and by drive it fast, you literally mean top speed. In which case I agree, you can only drive an MX5 at about 125mph I guess
xRIEx said:
If you have to ask, you probably don't have the skill to put the answer in to practice.
Hi , check out the other thread cars you don't get the mx5 features quite highly on this one so maybe I am not the only person who was a tad disappointed with the mx5 , it's not about fwd or rwd it's about decent cars neil-935ql said:
xRIEx said:
If you have to ask, you probably don't have the skill to put the answer in to practice.
Hi , check out the other thread cars you don't get the mx5 features quite highly on this one so maybe I am not the only person who was a tad disappointed with the mx5 , it's not about fwd or rwd it's about decent cars There are some superb fwd cars out there and depending what metrics or boundary conditions you apply they are probably faster across a stretch of road than a rwd.
Getting it right in a rwd car is just harder and more involving, even if slower it can be more fun.
I am not keen on diesel cars, but I would still take an e90 320D over a Focus ST. To be fair I would take a Corsa VXR over a VXR8 auto, there are limits.
Getting it right in a rwd car is just harder and more involving, even if slower it can be more fun.
I am not keen on diesel cars, but I would still take an e90 320D over a Focus ST. To be fair I would take a Corsa VXR over a VXR8 auto, there are limits.
300bhp/ton said:
Easy..
A mapped one of these:
Or this JE one if you are a bit more flushed with cash:
More grins than any hot hatch, can leave the tarmac and see over hedges/walls. And still a hoot to hustle.
300bhp's alive!A mapped one of these:
Or this JE one if you are a bit more flushed with cash:
More grins than any hot hatch, can leave the tarmac and see over hedges/walls. And still a hoot to hustle.
/brianblessed ;-)
Well, I've got to say that I've genuinely missed your contributions, 300. Welcome back. :-)
My original premise was, after all, to think of unexpected alternatives to a Golf GTi for someone who still needs a practical car. Not an easy daily driver for most drivers who have a right elbow, mind.
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