Hot Hatches or RWD Saloon?
Discussion
For me there is far more to a driver's car than which wheels are driven. Whilst ultimately I prefer RWD, a brilliant FWD car is often more fun. I currently have an Elise S1, Caterham and E36 328. However I have also run and loved for many years a 205 GTI and more recently a DC2.
DC2 vs 328 is a case in point. Yes, the Honda tramlines a little, however for me it is a non - issue. The biggest problem it had was lack of steering feel unless you were really working the diff, which you rarely were at normal speeds. The BMW offers some extra feel, however it is hardly brimming.
Everywhere else however, with the exception of mid range torque, the Honda was a lot more enjoyable. Handling, body control, gear change, pedals that alow heel and toe changes etc. It really is no contest.
Of course there is a different technique to driving it and I found LFB whilst feeding the throttle made it stunningly effective and enabled it to oversteer easily at sane speeds.
I can see a great car in the BMW but it will take some time and money to release its potential. The Honda by comparison was brilliant out of the box.
DC2 vs 328 is a case in point. Yes, the Honda tramlines a little, however for me it is a non - issue. The biggest problem it had was lack of steering feel unless you were really working the diff, which you rarely were at normal speeds. The BMW offers some extra feel, however it is hardly brimming.
Everywhere else however, with the exception of mid range torque, the Honda was a lot more enjoyable. Handling, body control, gear change, pedals that alow heel and toe changes etc. It really is no contest.
Of course there is a different technique to driving it and I found LFB whilst feeding the throttle made it stunningly effective and enabled it to oversteer easily at sane speeds.
I can see a great car in the BMW but it will take some time and money to release its potential. The Honda by comparison was brilliant out of the box.
Edited by SidewaysSi on Tuesday 4th August 07:42
ORD said:
The C-Class is a thoroughly miserable steer. Detached, uncommunicative, wallowy...horrid. A BMW on standard suspension isn't much better.
This, all day long.Not to mention that once they make it to high-ish speed, it still doesn't feel very fast or exciting such is the lack of NVH, which to be fair is what they're designed for.
I vote old hot hatch. The 130i was a very good shout, but then an E30 325i Sport Touring is rather fun too, especially on ditchfinders and with an LSD.
[quote=SidewaysSi]For me there is far more to a driver's car than which wheels are driven.[quote]
This.
All this talk of lift off oversteer/getting the arse out etc on public roads is a bit on the heroic wannabee race driver side for me.
Give me a creamy engine and a nice gearbox any day.
This.
All this talk of lift off oversteer/getting the arse out etc on public roads is a bit on the heroic wannabee race driver side for me.
Give me a creamy engine and a nice gearbox any day.
SidewaysSi said:
For me there is far more to a driver's car than which wheels are driven. Whilst ultimately I prefer RWD, a brilliant FWD car is often more fun. I currently have an Elise S1, Caterham and E36 328. However I have also run and loved for many years a 205 GTI and more recently a DC2.
Etc etc
100% agree. Generally I'd say I prefer RWD but there are plenty of RWD cars that offer very little driving fun. There are also a lot of well set up FWD cars that a good laugh and very competent.Etc etc
Edited by SidewaysSi on Tuesday 4th August 07:42
Most of my cars have been RWD (from capris, kit cars, M3s) but I still greatly enjoy a good FWD.
I couldn't make a definitive call based only on what wheels are driven.
Hungrymc said:
SidewaysSi said:
For me there is far more to a driver's car than which wheels are driven. Whilst ultimately I prefer RWD, a brilliant FWD car is often more fun. I currently have an Elise S1, Caterham and E36 328. However I have also run and loved for many years a 205 GTI and more recently a DC2.
Etc etc
100% agree. Generally I'd say I prefer RWD but there are plenty of RWD cars that offer very little driving fun. There are also a lot of well set up FWD cars that a good laugh and very competent.Etc etc
Edited by SidewaysSi on Tuesday 4th August 07:42
Most of my cars have been RWD (from capris, kit cars, M3s) but I still greatly enjoy a good FWD.
I couldn't make a definitive call based only on what wheels are driven.
SidewaysSi said:
I genuinely don't get people who discount road cars based on which wheels are driven. There are many facets to the way a car drives - which wheels are driven is just one, particularly given everything else is never equal.
I prefer rwd, by far. I don't discount fwd cars, they can be fun, but even the super driver focused ones just seem a bit "one trick pony" to me.I think RWD is more interesting.
The whole debate of fwd to rwd is like arguing between helicopters or fixed wing airplanes. Some people are helicopter fans, some people prefer airplanes. They are fundamentally different in how they move, but they both fly from A to B.
ZX10R NIN said:
I prefer RWD but for a B Road fun I'd pick a Megane 275/Trophy over a 135i/328i etc funnily enough I read Evo's test on hot hatches today & the 135i came last.
Most newer FWD hot hatches are one dimensional. Once you get over the pace they're a bit boring really, generally a bit naff and zero feel. I'd have a DC2 and 205 over all of them, save the money and buy a more rewarding car with bigger thrills. yonex said:
Most newer FWD hot hatches are one dimensional. Once you get over the pace they're a bit boring really, generally a bit naff and zero feel. I'd have a DC2 and 205 over all of them, save the money and buy a more rewarding car with bigger thrills.
I was talking in the context of the OP's post which was talking about new cars for some B Road fun & given those parameters the choice it would be a Megane 275.yonex said:
The context was 'driving accross the beacons for fun'. IME every modern 'great new giant killing hatch' is a lesson in killing steering whilst providing headline 0-'x' numbers. The lowest spec Caterham will provide more thrills than any über hatch.
Of course it will but a Caterham is a bit crap at everything else. I think Renault in particular have done great things with the latest 275 Trophy. The DC2 is hardly without its own issues - steering being it's weakest link.SidewaysSi said:
Of course it will but a Caterham is a bit crap at everything else. I think Renault in particular have done great things with the latest 275 Trophy. The DC2 is hardly without its own issues - steering being it's weakest link.
It's FWD, steering is going to be an issue. It's lack of torque and mobility at the rear sets it apart IMO. I have zero interest in yet another turbo 4 pot with clever suspension to kill torque steer. The dynamic of a hot hatch when I was growing up was lightweight, buzzy engines and bags of character. Renault have pushed the concept and it's not their fault it's ended up like this but the modern hot hatches are just boosted ordinary ones. SidewaysSi said:
Of course it will but a Caterham is a bit crap at everything else. I think Renault in particular have done great things with the latest 275 Trophy. The DC2 is hardly without its own issues - steering being it's weakest link.
It's FWD, steering is going to be an issue. It's lack of torque and mobility at the rear sets it apart IMO. I have zero interest in yet another turbo 4 pot with clever suspension to kill torque steer. The dynamic of a hot hatch when I was growing up was lightweight, buzzy engines and bags of character. Renault have pushed the concept and it's not their fault it's ended up like this but the modern hot hatches are just boosted ordinary ones. yonex said:
SidewaysSi said:
Of course it will but a Caterham is a bit crap at everything else. I think Renault in particular have done great things with the latest 275 Trophy. The DC2 is hardly without its own issues - steering being it's weakest link.
It's FWD, steering is going to be an issue. It's lack of torque and mobility at the rear sets it apart IMO. I have zero interest in yet another turbo 4 pot with clever suspension to kill torque steer. The dynamic of a hot hatch when I was growing up was lightweight, buzzy engines and bags of character. Renault have pushed the concept and it's not their fault it's ended up like this but the modern hot hatches are just boosted ordinary ones. SidewaysSi said:
Steering is not an issue in a 205, original Mini, Ax, Clio etc. I loved my Integra but I could see it was far from flawless.
But you're talking 115-130HP (205) vs 190 (DC2). As for the original Mini my main memory was understeer and an awful ride. I'm not saying the Integra was perfect but for me, it's up there with the best FWD cars ever made. yonex said:
SidewaysSi said:
Steering is not an issue in a 205, original Mini, Ax, Clio etc. I loved my Integra but I could see it was far from flawless.
But you're talking 115-130HP (205) vs 190 (DC2). As for the original Mini my main memory was understeer and an awful ride. I'm not saying the Integra was perfect but for me, it's up there with the best FWD cars ever made. As for modern, like older cars, for me there is more to it than purely the driven wheels.
Comparing like with like e.g. 205 GTI vs E30 or M135 vs 275 Trophy, I can't say I would definitely take the RWD car in either case.
SidewaysSi said:
yonex said:
The context was 'driving accross the beacons for fun'. IME every modern 'great new giant killing hatch' is a lesson in killing steering whilst providing headline 0-'x' numbers. The lowest spec Caterham will provide more thrills than any über hatch.
Of course it will but a Caterham is a bit crap at everything else. I think Renault in particular have done great things with the latest 275 Trophy. The DC2 is hardly without its own issues - steering being it's weakest link.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff