Hot Hatches or RWD Saloon?

[ZX10R NIN]

yonex said:

It's FWD, steering is going to be an issue. It's lack of torque and mobility at the rear sets it apart IMO. I have zero interest in yet another turbo 4 pot with clever suspension to kill torque steer. The dynamic of a hot hatch when I was growing up was lightweight, buzzy engines and bags of character. Renault have pushed the concept and it's not their fault it's ended up like this but the modern hot hatches are just boosted ordinary ones.

Would you have any interest in a turbo 4 rwd? Which is what the 330i M Sport Plus is, would you say that dynamically it would be a better B road car than the Megane if so what makes you think that? As a side bar they're very close on price.

[DoubleSix]

ZX10R NIN said:

yonex said:

It's FWD, steering is going to be an issue. It's lack of torque and mobility at the rear sets it apart IMO. I have zero interest in yet another turbo 4 pot with clever suspension to kill torque steer. The dynamic of a hot hatch when I was growing up was lightweight, buzzy engines and bags of character. Renault have pushed the concept and it's not their fault it's ended up like this but the modern hot hatches are just boosted ordinary ones.

Would you have any interest in a turbo 4 rwd? Which is what the 330i M Sport Plus is, would you say that dynamically it would be a better B road car than the Megane if so what makes you think that? As a side bar they're very close on price.

I suspect he'd rather a straight six, I know I would

[ZX10R NIN]

DoubleSix said:

I suspect he'd rather a straight six, I know I would

I agree that he probably would (I'd prefer a V8) but the new 330i is a Four Pot Turbo, it's replaced the 328i as BMW plays with it's numbers again.


As I said I'm going by the OP's parameters which was a new 328i/330i or a hot hatch for some B Road fun.

[SidewaysSi]

300bhp/ton said:

SidewaysSi said:

yonex said:

The context was 'driving accross the beacons for fun'. IME every modern 'great new giant killing hatch' is a lesson in killing steering whilst providing headline 0-'x' numbers. The lowest spec Caterham will provide more thrills than any über hatch.

Of course it will but a Caterham is a bit crap at everything else. I think Renault in particular have done great things with the latest 275 Trophy. The DC2 is hardly without its own issues - steering being it's weakest link.

The LSD in the ITR makes the steering quite chatty, but in a totally different way to light weight hatches of old with open diffs.

I didn't think my ITR had chatty steering at all during normal road use. It was a lot better once the diff was working hard, however it was hardly the sort of car bubbling with feedback when pooling at 30mph. After 5 years of all sorts of driving, I did love it. But not its steering!

[300bhp/ton]

When I say chatty I meant more seems to be talking all the time. Rather than good communication. But I admit it's been a while since driving a DC2. Certainly notice it in other LSD equipped fwd cars though.

[DoubleSix]

ZX10R NIN said:

DoubleSix said:

I suspect he'd rather a straight six, I know I would

I agree that he probably would (I'd prefer a V8) but the new 330i is a Four Pot Turbo, it's replaced the 328i as BMW plays with it's numbers again.


As I said I'm going by the OP's parameters which was a new 328i/330i or a hot hatch for some B Road fun.

Those are your parameters!!

OP makes no mention of "new" crappy turbo charged BMWs vs plasticy french ste, his was a more open question...

[cerb4.5lee]

ZX10R NIN said:

DoubleSix said:

I suspect he'd rather a straight six, I know I would

I agree that he probably would (I'd prefer a V8)

Me too and I love V8`s! genuinely what makes people love a straight six so much over a V8 or I am I just not old enough to appreciate the good old days.

Given the choice I would have a V8 over a straight six any day of the week.

[iloveboost]

mat205125 said:

If the OPs choices prevent a proper engine for the RWD saloon, I'd take the FWD hot hatch.

Rather than a large 2 litre model, however, I'd downsize to a Fiesta ST please

Same here, but I prefer FWD anyway because I'm not a real driving enthusiast and can't drive.

[ZX10R NIN]

blearyeyedboy said:

I'm interested to know what people would answer to the following question:

You have a trip across the Brecon Beacons and you're not in a hurry, so you can make detours to have as much fun as you like. You can pick up the keys to a pretty recent FWD 2 litre hot hatch or a RWD 4 pot petrol saloon. Which would you take?

Let's say you could have a recent Focus ST or a BMW 328i that isn't an M Sport variant. Or substitute for some relevant rival if you like.

Consider the following:

The traditional wisdom is that RWD + front engine is better than FWD.
A 4-pot saloon isn't going to have the cachet of a 6 cylinder one, but performance figures are going to be comparable to a hot hatch in which you'll probably get a 4 pot anyway. (6-7 seconds 0-60, top speed 140ish mph etc)

Should people looking for a fun practical car be steered towards a RWD saloon by wise PHers? Or are the current hot hatch breed more fun than more sober business saloons? I'm not looking to buy either right now. I'm just interested in sparking a discussion.

I'm sure he mentions a four pot 328i & he does mention a four pot turbo Focus ST "or substitute for a relevant rival" which I did with the Megane.

The way I read it was is a 328i(sober business saloon) a more fun car than a FWD hot hatch (Megane/Focus) down a B Road,

Edited by ZX10R NIN on Wednesday 5th August 22:00

[DoubleSix]

cerb4.5lee said:

ZX10R NIN said:

DoubleSix said:

I suspect he'd rather a straight six, I know I would

I agree that he probably would (I'd prefer a V8)

Me too and I love V8`s! genuinely what makes people love a straight six so much over a V8 or I am I just not old enough to appreciate the good old days.

Given the choice I would have a V8 over a straight six any day of the week.

Isn't that a totally different thread?

[cerb4.5lee]

DoubleSix said:

cerb4.5lee said:

ZX10R NIN said:

DoubleSix said:

I suspect he'd rather a straight six, I know I would

I agree that he probably would (I'd prefer a V8)

Me too and I love V8`s! genuinely what makes people love a straight six so much over a V8 or I am I just not old enough to appreciate the good old days.

Given the choice I would have a V8 over a straight six any day of the week.

Isn't that a totally different thread?

Yes it possibly is to be fair.

[ZX10R NIN]

cerb4.5lee said:

Me too and I love V8`s! genuinely what makes people love a straight six so much over a V8 or I am I just not old enough to appreciate the good old days.

Given the choice I would have a V8 over a straight six any day of the week.

you can't beat a V8 for the sound & their ability to put a smile on your face on start up.

[cerb4.5lee]

ZX10R NIN said:

cerb4.5lee said:

Me too and I love V8`s! genuinely what makes people love a straight six so much over a V8 or I am I just not old enough to appreciate the good old days.

Given the choice I would have a V8 over a straight six any day of the week.

you can't beat a V8 for the sound & their ability to put a smile on your face on start up.

Absolutely!

[DoubleSix]

ZX10R NIN said:

cerb4.5lee said:

Me too and I love V8`s! genuinely what makes people love a straight six so much over a V8 or I am I just not old enough to appreciate the good old days.

Given the choice I would have a V8 over a straight six any day of the week.

you can't beat a V8 for the sound & their ability to put a smile on your face on start up.

"No, V10 is bestest!"

"NOOO, V12 FTW!"

etc etc


I don't know of many b-road weapons that have these engines...

[anonymous-user]

SidewaysSi said:

I didn't think my ITR had chatty steering at all during normal road use. It was a lot better once the diff was working hard, however it was hardly the sort of car bubbling with feedback when pooling at 30mph. After 5 years of all sorts of driving, I did love it. But not its steering!

Totally. I figured I let you say it The DC2 was only ever relevant when being battered. The turn in was amongst the most fun of any car I've owned yet at normal speeds the feedback from the front may have been a civic. It took two test drives and a weekend to convince me to buy one in 1999. I spent 7 years with that car which speaks volumes. They don't have 'chatty' steering

[ZX10R NIN]

DoubleSix said:

"No, V10 is bestest!"

"NOOO, V12 FTW!"

etc etc


I don't know of many b-road weapons that have these engines...

My CLK63 is no B road weapon but it puts a smile on my face.

[ZX10R NIN]

DoubleSix said:

Those are your parameters!!

OP makes no mention of "new" crappy turbo charged BMWs vs plasticy french ste, his was a more open question...

Do you now agree the OP did mention a "crappy turbo charged BMW" vs a hot hatch?

[DoubleSix]

ZX10R NIN said:

DoubleSix said:

"No, V10 is bestest!"

"NOOO, V12 FTW!"

etc etc


I don't know of many b-road weapons that have these engines...

My CLK63 is no B road weapon but it puts a smile on my face.

Great.

But what on earth has that to do with the thread?

Best B road car I've ever had was my Cayman but it's got nothing to do with the thread; which was about fwd hatches vs rwd saloons as best as I can tell.

[DoubleSix]

ZX10R NIN said:

DoubleSix said:

Those are your parameters!!

OP makes no mention of "new" crappy turbo charged BMWs vs plasticy french ste, his was a more open question...

Do you now agree the OP did mention a "crappy turbo charged BMW" vs a hot hatch?

Reading it back, yes perhaps.

I read it as the 328i being the traditional 6 cyl but maybe thats not what he meant.

[ZX10R NIN]

DoubleSix said:

Great.

But what on earth has that to do with the thread?

Best B road car I've ever had was my Cayman but it's got nothing to do with the thread; which was about fwd hatches vs rwd saloons as best as I can tell.

Agreed it has nothing to do with this thread & it is about that, so I take it that you're now agreeing the OP mentioned a 328i(turbo 4 pot) vs Hot hatches (turbo 4 pot) down a B Road.

At which point given the choice I'd pick the Megane as IMO it would be the better car, I was surprised by the latest Evo hot hatch test where they surprisingly placed the M135i last.