Hot Hatches or RWD Saloon?

[s m]

blearyeyedboy said:

DoubleSix said:

I'd take the 6cyl RWD hot hatch...

I can't imagine which one you mean... Who makes one of those? There aren't any posts on here about such a wondrous junior supercar at all.

I knew someone would bring up the M135i. I wondered whether to mention it or not because it's the obvious get-out to the scenario I mentioned. I suppose what surprises me is that there aren't many published comparisons of hot hatches with more traditional saloons for similar money.

Doesn't necessarily have to be a 1-series though

[Fastdruid]

E92Dan said:

Fastdruid said:

No it's not.

Oops your right it's not a hatch. It's got 4 doors and a boot, which makes it a......

4 door Coupé.

[Mr Tidy]

aka_kerrly said:

I'm very much one to take a a proper hot hatch over a standard issue saloon.

I know on PH people will argue through the night that the lowest powered BMW is far superior to the very best hot hatches simply because it sends it's meager power to the back wheels.

I believe there is far far more to making a good car than just it's driven wheels.

Yes, I agree entirely (despite being an RWD fan).

I have had 114d, 116d and 116i as courtesy cars with crazy M Sport wheels and tyres and frankly in a hurry they wouldn't see which way my MK I Golf GTi or MK II 16V went - or the MK II RS2000 I should never have sold!

But the 2000MY Leon Cupra I had was always scrabbling for grip out of slower corners especially when it was damp/wet - seems like as you get near to 200 bhp FWD just isn't as effective IMHO.

[Toltec]

aka_kerrly said:

I'm very much one to take a a proper hot hatch over a standard issue saloon.

Never owned either type, though having thought about it an E30 318i would probably be my choice, my boss had one in the 90's and while the steering was a bit slow it was quite fun to drive.

[otolith]

E92Dan said:

Fastdruid said:

No it's not.

Oops your right it's not a hatch. It's got 4 doors and a boot, which makes it a......

More like 3 doors, one and a half each side.

[s m]

heebeegeetee said:

Out of the choices you've given it would be a hatch for me. I think they're more fun.

Yes, depends on the cars. I have a couple of warm/hot hatches - fwd and rwd - enjoy driving them but my saloon car is great to steer as well.
I'd probably pick the Fiesta ST over the new 328i though

[Kolbenkopp]

Mr Tidy said:

But the 2000MY Leon Cupra I had was always scrabbling for grip out of slower corners especially when it was damp/wet - seems like as you get near to 200 bhp FWD just isn't as effective IMHO.

There has been a lot of progress in performance FWD land over the last decade. The latest Fiesta ST I found almost too competent. Don't think you'll complain about much torque steer or traction with any of the latest breed.

The modern 4 pot RWD saloons... Well I would not want one for mainly B road fun. As an all round car probably still the best choice. But focus in all of them is so much on efficiency and refinement now. Not steering feel or playful handling. Balance and good NVH, yes. But all of them are pretty heavy. XE and upcoming Giulia might be a little sharper perhaps. Not driven yet though.

Aeons ago, one could have recommended something like a 318is. But they don't make them like that any more .

Or do they? What about a BRZ?

[blearyeyedboy]

I think a modern 4 door BRZ/GT86 equivalent might find a lot of friends. Of course, you'd lose something from the Toyobaru (in torsional stiffness at least) but there might be a lot of people willing to sacrifice a *little* of the GT86's ability for more rear door access.

So far, out of all the replies, I'm loving that Civic FD2.

[cat220]

Ok it's not a 2.0 litre however I'd opt for my DC2, either that or the FD2 posted earlier.

[otolith]

There aren't many cheap rear drive cars of moderate performance which are explicitly sporting; most of them are low powered versions of luxury oriented cars. There's only really the GT86/BRZ and MX-5. Those are what I would look to rather than a quicker fwd car or a basic exec saloon.

[gowmonster]

Mazda RX8?

[rb5er]

Kawasicki said:

rwd saloon, less boring than any fwd car.

Retarded

[Hungrymc]

Kawasicki said:

rwd saloon, less boring than any fwd car.

rwd gives a multitude of options.

fwd gives you either lift off oversteer or power on understeer...that's it.

I'm a fan of RWD but it has to be in the right package. The OP's constraints mean the RWD car has no advantage.

If the RWD car could be relatively light, stiff (body), ideally a good diff and a charismatic engine, then it's going to be my choice. But in a mundane, heavy over assisted, 4 pot saloon.... I'd leave it and take a 280 Cupra or the Megane or a Focus RS

Edited by Hungrymc on Saturday 25th July 08:19

[heebeegeetee]

Kawasicki said:

rwd saloon, less boring than any fwd car.

rwd gives a multitude of options.

fwd gives you either lift off oversteer or power on understeer...that's it.

The rwd cars listed in the OP won't give any options at all (never mind a multitude) and will be as dull as dishwater with understeer possibly being the one and only real 'option'.

Whereas an fwd with half the power (or a quarter of the power in the case of an old Mini) can be great fun.

[Poopipe]

An FWD with twice the power would be even more fun.

Anyway - in this instance id plump for the hatch, ideally a mk2 megane rs which I believe to be the perfect car for steaming along a windy road in a dynamic fashion.

[Kawasicki]

heebeegeetee said:

The rwd cars listed in the OP won't give any options at all (never mind a multitude) and will be as dull as dishwater with understeer possibly being the one and only real 'option'.

Whereas an fwd with half the power (or a quarter of the power in the case of an old Mini) can be great fun.

I'm sorry...a 328i is the example in the OP...about 260bhp...and you say understeer is the only option.

Learn to drive.

[heebeegeetee]

Kawasicki said:

I'm sorry...a 328i is the example in the OP...about 260bhp...and you say understeer is the only option.

Learn to drive.

Np. 328s can be made to 'drift', very slowly, around roundabouts. On a trip across the Brecon beacons, they won't do that.

As an old git who who remembers the time when just about everything but Minis were rwd, I remain totally bemused by the sheer amount of bullst that surrounds the subject of rwd these days.

[SamMCS]

4 pot RWD saloon that's not a BMW or Merc..

I personally would take the Toyota Altezza RS200.

[Kawasicki]

heebeegeetee said:

Kawasicki said:

I'm sorry...a 328i is the example in the OP...about 260bhp...and you say understeer is the only option.

Learn to drive.

Np. 328s can be made to 'drift', very slowly, around roundabouts. On a trip across the Brecon beacons, they won't do that.

As an old git who who remembers the time when just about everything but Minis were rwd, I remain totally bemused by the sheer amount of bullst that surrounds the subject of rwd these days.

Learn to drive.

[blearyeyedboy]

Feel as unconstrained as you like in your choices! I suppose the only constraint I'm trying to force is practicality (rear seats, a boot, a roof, maybe rear doors). The reason I'm trying to provoke the conversation is to see what people think might be alternatives to a typical hot hatch for enthusiastic drivers who need a nod to practicality.