Hot Hatches or RWD Saloon?
Discussion
A friend of mine built himself a peugeot 205 with a supercharged 2.0 16v engine in. Currently pumping out about 240bhp and quite frankly is scary fast in any situation you put it in. The suspension was chosen to keep traction on the bumpy B roads and overall I think its one of the fastest point to point cars I've driven. FWD can sucessfully be over 200bhp with the right combination of parts including an LSD.
Theres not really a new RWD saloon that can match the smallish size and weight. Half the technique of driving small twisty roads is carrying momentum through the corners. Saloons fall into the next size up so its a bit more difficult. The BMW M1 might be a good contender. Its not really small though so I think its retro time again. E30 M3. thin and light enough to navigate the small roads, setup from the factory for hooning. For those saying 6 pot minimum for RWD they can have the 325 and be slower
Theres not really a new RWD saloon that can match the smallish size and weight. Half the technique of driving small twisty roads is carrying momentum through the corners. Saloons fall into the next size up so its a bit more difficult. The BMW M1 might be a good contender. Its not really small though so I think its retro time again. E30 M3. thin and light enough to navigate the small roads, setup from the factory for hooning. For those saying 6 pot minimum for RWD they can have the 325 and be slower
I actually feel sorry for all these people that can't see past something with drive going anywhere other than the rear and any less than 6 cylinders.
Judge a car when you've driven it.
It would be a hot hatch for me in this instance. The selection of 4 pot rwd saloons is too narrow. I've driven both the C class and the current 328i and neither are designed for fun. The scope for a fun FWD 4 pot hatch either new or old is huge. They are by far some of the most suitable and capable cars for Brittish B roads. In fact, even we opened this up to include the glorious 6 cylinder RWD beasts that these powerfully built, very well endowed ph'ers bang on about it probably still pick a hot hatch from the equivalent era.
Judge a car when you've driven it.
It would be a hot hatch for me in this instance. The selection of 4 pot rwd saloons is too narrow. I've driven both the C class and the current 328i and neither are designed for fun. The scope for a fun FWD 4 pot hatch either new or old is huge. They are by far some of the most suitable and capable cars for Brittish B roads. In fact, even we opened this up to include the glorious 6 cylinder RWD beasts that these powerfully built, very well endowed ph'ers bang on about it probably still pick a hot hatch from the equivalent era.
nunpuncher said:
I actually feel sorry for all these people that can't see past something with drive going anywhere other than the rear and any less than 6 cylinders.
Judge a car when you've driven it.
It would be a hot hatch for me in this instance. The selection of 4 pot rwd saloons is too narrow. I've driven both the C class and the current 328i and neither are designed for fun. The scope for a fun FWD 4 pot hatch either new or old is huge. They are by far some of the most suitable and capable cars for Brittish B roads. In fact, even we opened this up to include the glorious 6 cylinder RWD beasts that these powerfully built, very well endowed ph'ers bang on about it probably still pick a hot hatch from the equivalent era.
That might be stretching it a bit. An old M3 would tempt me more than the hatches of the relevant eras.Judge a car when you've driven it.
It would be a hot hatch for me in this instance. The selection of 4 pot rwd saloons is too narrow. I've driven both the C class and the current 328i and neither are designed for fun. The scope for a fun FWD 4 pot hatch either new or old is huge. They are by far some of the most suitable and capable cars for Brittish B roads. In fact, even we opened this up to include the glorious 6 cylinder RWD beasts that these powerfully built, very well endowed ph'ers bang on about it probably still pick a hot hatch from the equivalent era.
I can't even remember what the original question was but think I get the drift of the thread.
I've owned a variety of hot hatches, a couple of MX5's and a BMW 325i m sport.
For a good fun blast I would pick the Hot Hatch EVERY time. I absolutely love grabbing a FWD by the scruff of the neck and giving it a good shaking. The favourite of mine personally was the 172 cup, an absolutely wonderful handling car.
I never really got to grips with the RWD thing. The mx5's all though very nice to drive are quite hard to really push on in (I'm no driving god). They're very nice for making steady progress on a nice evening with the top down but that's as far as I ever enjoyed going with them. The BMW was just too boring. It pretty much put me off driving for the whole time I owned the car. It was very good at going very fast over long distance, but that's just a comfort thing.
I pine after another hot hatch. But growing families dictate otherwise.
I've owned a variety of hot hatches, a couple of MX5's and a BMW 325i m sport.
For a good fun blast I would pick the Hot Hatch EVERY time. I absolutely love grabbing a FWD by the scruff of the neck and giving it a good shaking. The favourite of mine personally was the 172 cup, an absolutely wonderful handling car.
I never really got to grips with the RWD thing. The mx5's all though very nice to drive are quite hard to really push on in (I'm no driving god). They're very nice for making steady progress on a nice evening with the top down but that's as far as I ever enjoyed going with them. The BMW was just too boring. It pretty much put me off driving for the whole time I owned the car. It was very good at going very fast over long distance, but that's just a comfort thing.
I pine after another hot hatch. But growing families dictate otherwise.
Of convenient relevance to the thread topic, I once owned an E36 328i and a Xsara VTS alongside each other. I'm a firm RWD fan but of those two, the Xsara was massively more entertaining on a country road. It's kind of obvious but RWD is not always more fun than FWD, just like for like it usually is. Comparing a lively and involving hot hatch with a car built to be relaxing on autobahns is not a like for like comparison. That Xsara was one of the most entertaining cars I've ever owned, beating many of my RWDs, but not beating the best of the RWDs.
kiseca said:
The question suggests that which wheels get driven has the most influence over whether a car is fun to drive down a twisty road. I'd say that the rest of the car makes a much bigger difference and that I would not be able to answer the question only on the knowledge of what wheels are driven.
I've driven some utterly dull RWD cars, some were even BMWs.. and I've driven some very entertaining FWD cars too.
All other things being equal, RWD has more potential - for me because the front wheels can provide crisper feedback. In the modern world of power steering 2turns lock to lock and 245/35 front tyres though, I don't think that RWD has much of that advantafe left.
I know someone sooner or later will go on about tokyo drifts and such but on a b-road there're rarely any room and you can get a balanced FWD car just as sideways if you want and it's just as much fun.
This, definitely. RWD might traditionally be the preferred choice for a "sporty" car, but it would be silly to say that a rather mundane saloon car would be more fun than a sporty hot hatch on this type of drive, simply because its driven wheels are at the rear. I've driven some utterly dull RWD cars, some were even BMWs.. and I've driven some very entertaining FWD cars too.
All other things being equal, RWD has more potential - for me because the front wheels can provide crisper feedback. In the modern world of power steering 2turns lock to lock and 245/35 front tyres though, I don't think that RWD has much of that advantafe left.
I know someone sooner or later will go on about tokyo drifts and such but on a b-road there're rarely any room and you can get a balanced FWD car just as sideways if you want and it's just as much fun.
nunpuncher said:
In fact, even we opened this up to include the glorious 6 cylinder RWD beasts that these powerfully built, very well endowed ph'ers bang on about it probably still pick a hot hatch from the equivalent era.
Why not have both?? Hardly need to be powerfully built to afford one! 
blearyeyedboy said:
Yeah, I suppose the C class was a bad thing to mention by me. I was deliberately trying not to make this just about BMW... but until the XE launches the rest of that RWD group (C Class, IS300h) aren't famed for their sporting potential.
Basically, "Blearyeyedboy's original premise is wrong" seems to be the consensus of the group, and I'm OK with that.
I think the RX8 was a really good idea, hampered by using the wrong engine for these CO2 conscious times. (I'm not saying the rotary engine isn't any good, just that it was commercial suicide when CO2 emissions became important.) Mazda could do worse than to resurrect the concept without a rotary... but they'll never do that.
Hmm... buy a cheap RX8 and do an interesting engine transplant...
I'm sure there's a thread about an interesting LS1 V8 transplant on here.
(Edited for mistyping)
Not at all. The C is a very accomplished chassis. I have never driven the W205, but the W204 was neck and neck with the 3er in terms of balance, feedback, and overall enjoyment, if a bit more compromised in favor of ride, however (which might be a bonus where you live). Either the C or the 3 with a sport package added on will be very enjoyable in the bends. If power to weight is very important to you, I'd go for a hot hatch. Basically, "Blearyeyedboy's original premise is wrong" seems to be the consensus of the group, and I'm OK with that.
I think the RX8 was a really good idea, hampered by using the wrong engine for these CO2 conscious times. (I'm not saying the rotary engine isn't any good, just that it was commercial suicide when CO2 emissions became important.) Mazda could do worse than to resurrect the concept without a rotary... but they'll never do that.
Hmm... buy a cheap RX8 and do an interesting engine transplant...
I'm sure there's a thread about an interesting LS1 V8 transplant on here.(Edited for mistyping)
Edited by blearyeyedboy on Friday 24th July 21:42
DoubleSix said:
Why not have both?? Hardly need to be powerfully built to afford one!
Without wanting to open an enormous can of worms here, are these really all that lively to drive compared to a proper hot hatch? By proper I mean French-style involving handling rather than the VAG version of a hot hatch with one foot firmly in the refinement and comfort camp.I've owned a number of BMWs and like every other German car I've been in they've always had a rather sedate and safe handling balance, RWD or not. How would a 1 series compare to say a Renaultsport Megane on that front?
T0MMY said:
DoubleSix said:
Why not have both?? Hardly need to be powerfully built to afford one!
Without wanting to open an enormous can of worms here, are these really all that lively to drive compared to a proper hot hatch? By proper I mean French-style involving handling rather than the VAG version of a hot hatch with one foot firmly in the refinement and comfort camp.I've owned a number of BMWs and like every other German car I've been in they've always had a rather sedate and safe handling balance, RWD or not. How would a 1 series compare to say a Renaultsport Megane on that front?
Edited by DoubleSix on Saturday 25th July 16:40
rufusgti said:
I never really got to grips with the RWD thing. The mx5's all though very nice to drive are quite hard to really push on in (I'm no driving god). They're very nice for making steady progress on a nice evening with the top down but that's as far as I ever enjoyed going with them.
...but that's the reward of rwd, it's not as easy as fwd and needs practice and attention. You will generally cover ground on public roads faster in a good fwd than a good rwd, if for no other reason than confidence. But which is more fun is a different question.On a more general note, as others have said a good fwd still beats a bad rwd. My own fleet has lacked fwd for many years now, but i'm open minded. I wonder what i should consider for pure fwd fun?? top of my list is a 172 any other thoughts?? This month's EVO hh review that puts the Megane Trophy ahead of its rivals because of handling finese and balance, not outright lap times. good, that's my kind of car. Can't pay Megane prices, but would consider paying 172 money.
blearyeyedboy said:
I think the RX8 was a really good idea, hampered by using the wrong engine for these CO2 conscious times. (I'm not saying the rotary engine isn't any good, just that it was commercial suicide when CO2 emissions became important.)
They did sell an awful lot of them for all that, far more than Nissan sold of the 350/370Z for example. DoubleSix said:
T0MMY said:
DoubleSix said:
Why not have both?? Hardly need to be powerfully built to afford one!
Without wanting to open an enormous can of worms here, are these really all that lively to drive compared to a proper hot hatch? By proper I mean French-style involving handling rather than the VAG version of a hot hatch with one foot firmly in the refinement and comfort camp.I've owned a number of BMWs and like every other German car I've been in they've always had a rather sedate and safe handling balance, RWD or not. How would a 1 series compare to say a Renaultsport Megane on that front?
Edited by DoubleSix on Saturday 25th July 16:40
I love a good FWD french hatch - 205, R26R, Clio Trophy etc.
otolith said:
blearyeyedboy said:
I think the RX8 was a really good idea, hampered by using the wrong engine for these CO2 conscious times. (I'm not saying the rotary engine isn't any good, just that it was commercial suicide when CO2 emissions became important.)
They did sell an awful lot of them for all that, far more than Nissan sold of the 350/370Z for example. Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff