Sports saloons vs sports cars
Discussion
otolith said:
Can't say I find my Elise lacking in overtaking performance - it does 0-100 in about 13 seconds, which even now is the top tier of hot hatches. I think if that's not enough to overtake easily, your technique is off. It tails off faster at the top end than a 300bhp/1500kg car, but three figure overtakes are probably not something you want to make a habit of.
That’s a very polite way of phrasing a sentiment that gets repeated often in these parts nowadays, aka “you must drive like a loon if you need a car that’s faster than mine”. Which IMO is the Godwin of petrolhead discussions.It’s great that you find the performance of your Elise adequate. I wouldn’t, which is why I’d only opt for for an SC or V6 model.
SidewaysSi said:
It's all about straight line performance and paddle shifts these days. Feel, handling etc. is sadly lost on most people.
I am agreement with this. Conversely the opinion that only an Elise or Caterham can deliver proper driving thrills is equally blinkered.plenty said:
otolith said:
Can't say I find my Elise lacking in overtaking performance - it does 0-100 in about 13 seconds, which even now is the top tier of hot hatches. I think if that's not enough to overtake easily, your technique is off. It tails off faster at the top end than a 300bhp/1500kg car, but three figure overtakes are probably not something you want to make a habit of.
That’s a very polite way of phrasing a sentiment that gets repeated often in these parts nowadays, aka “you must drive like a loon if you need a car that’s faster than mine”. Which IMO is the Godwin of petrolhead discussions.It’s great that you find the performance of your Elise adequate. I wouldn’t, which is why I’d only opt for for an SC or V6 model.
otolith said:
Yet you would find the performance of an RS Megane adequate, despite it being a little slower to 100? I'm not following your logic.
An RS Megane can and should be mapped to a comfortable 290-300 hp, giving it overtaking punch when an NA Elise has long run out of puff.Look, it's all about how you use the car and the sort of driving you do. If all you do is commute locally or go for short blasts on sunny Sunday afternoons, then an NA Elise is all the car you need. For regular forays into Wales, Scotland and continental Europe at all times of the year, you need something with a larger and more available performance envelope even if it does mean sacrificing some finesse.
Difficult one for me, I don't need or want a large fast saloon car; I also like my cars to be as subtle as a kick in the nuts which rules them out completely as they are fairly incognito to non petrol heads (some exceptions noted).
Most of the current sports cars leave me cold (things like the F-Type are no doubt fantastic cars, look great, sound great, and are pretty brisk too. I just don't want one. If you group things like R8's into the sports car group the same applies.
So I'll have to fall out of the sports car / saloon bit and say to be honest if money were no object I'd have a hot-rod based on a vintage American car, with a big block V8 (on carbs), it might be a fully restored body or a rat-rod (though if it were a rat-rod it would have to be 100% natural patina. But money being an object means I can't afford to run such a beast. Either that or a hot-rodded muscle car, again with a big block V8, probably bright green or orange.
Most of the current sports cars leave me cold (things like the F-Type are no doubt fantastic cars, look great, sound great, and are pretty brisk too. I just don't want one. If you group things like R8's into the sports car group the same applies.
So I'll have to fall out of the sports car / saloon bit and say to be honest if money were no object I'd have a hot-rod based on a vintage American car, with a big block V8 (on carbs), it might be a fully restored body or a rat-rod (though if it were a rat-rod it would have to be 100% natural patina. But money being an object means I can't afford to run such a beast. Either that or a hot-rodded muscle car, again with a big block V8, probably bright green or orange.
You didn't mention remapping.
There are things the Elise isn't good for - lack of luggage space, lack of shoulder room with a passenger on board, lack of toys, noise, lack of driver aids, not being the most reassuring thing to sit next to an HGV's wheels in, etc - which limit what it's good at. Overtaking isn't one of them, certainly not in the 190bhp car. The lower powered cars do start to noticeably run out of puff at higher speeds, the 118bhp S1 courtesy car I sometimes get being a case in point.
There are things the Elise isn't good for - lack of luggage space, lack of shoulder room with a passenger on board, lack of toys, noise, lack of driver aids, not being the most reassuring thing to sit next to an HGV's wheels in, etc - which limit what it's good at. Overtaking isn't one of them, certainly not in the 190bhp car. The lower powered cars do start to noticeably run out of puff at higher speeds, the 118bhp S1 courtesy car I sometimes get being a case in point.
The general answer would be 2 doors better unless the car is huge. The M3/M4 is where the battleground becomes obscured though, as while the coupe was always historically the M3 to have when there was a choice in times past - the current 3 series is if anything beyond what until only a few years back what was considered a 5 series size. Consequently the latest M3 with a manual gear box is kind of a spiritual successor to the E39 M5, so the extension to that is what we would all want with 2 doors may not actually be the M4 but rather the imminent M2...?
There's nothing like the "feel" of a great mid-engine chassis and you don't need a humungous engine to enjoy it. Hence the attraction of Elise/Exige and Boxster/Cayman at sensible prices.
To my taste sticking a humungous V8 in the front of a German saloon just leaves you with .... a German saloon. And if the "sports suspension" is fitted as well that'll be a German saloon with a hard ride.
To my taste sticking a humungous V8 in the front of a German saloon just leaves you with .... a German saloon. And if the "sports suspension" is fitted as well that'll be a German saloon with a hard ride.
plenty said:
Let me paraphrase that from a different perspective: having a car that you have to tiptoe around in in less than ideal conditions, which gets stuck behind other cars because of lack of overtaking oomph when driving companions with more horses are far up the road, means the number of occasions when I could use it are rather limited.
Don't get me wrong, I adore the Elige and the Caterham and a 3.5 Exige or Evora would do very nicely thank you, but in terms of what you can buy at a price point that most of us are realistically willing to pay, an M3 or Megane or a Mitsubaru is more fun more of the time and for that I'm okay with sacrificing the last nth of thrills that I might get in a short blat in the dry by myself which only represents a small fraction of my driving diet anyway.
Maybe that's the real question of this thread ?Don't get me wrong, I adore the Elige and the Caterham and a 3.5 Exige or Evora would do very nicely thank you, but in terms of what you can buy at a price point that most of us are realistically willing to pay, an M3 or Megane or a Mitsubaru is more fun more of the time and for that I'm okay with sacrificing the last nth of thrills that I might get in a short blat in the dry by myself which only represents a small fraction of my driving diet anyway.
If you want competence, speed, comfort, practicality then the super saloons offer plenty.... That's what you're describing I think.
If you're after something with more feel (I describe it as being simply more mechanical) then the super saloons are underwhelming.
The saloons are just too large and lack some interaction for a fun car IMO. They're undeniably imensly fast and competent. But there is more to driving fun than speed and ease of use.
Driving a coupe for styles sake is just plain naff for me, Its somehow purer if the doors/seats count are dictated by the mechanical layout paired with what the lines of the car will allow. Nobody wants a 4 door 911 but if the M3/4 looks good with 4 doors (and I think we all agree that it does), then why make it with 2 doors. I blame it all on that Bangle bloke, I think BMW is just emerging from a decade or more of making some pretty dodgy looking 4 wheeled drudgery (Z4 anyone). Not sure if they quite have their Mojo back yet but I think the 4 door M3 (or is it just M3 ?) will be seen as a turning point in style terms, whereas the M4 is a marketing necessity in a world full of coupes. BMW's are supposed to be fast saloons, BMW leave the coupes to others who do it better! My vote is 4 doors are cooler (unless it's a Porsche). Watch the film Ronin, lots of cool car action and all saloons. Why is it called Ronin?
dom1102 said:
Driving a coupe for styles sake is just plain naff for me, Its somehow purer if the doors/seats count are dictated by the mechanical layout paired with what the lines of the car will allow. Nobody wants a 4 door 911 but if the M3/4 looks good with 4 doors (and I think we all agree that it does), then why make it with 2 doors. I blame it all on that Bangle bloke, I think BMW is just emerging from a decade or more of making some pretty dodgy looking 4 wheeled drudgery (Z4 anyone). Not sure if they quite have their Mojo back yet but I think the 4 door M3 (or is it just M3 ?) will be seen as a turning point in style terms, whereas the M4 is a marketing necessity in a world full of coupes. BMW's are supposed to be fast saloons, BMW leave the coupes to others who do it better! My vote is 4 doors are cooler (unless it's a Porsche). Watch the film Ronin, lots of cool car action and all saloons. Why is it called Ronin?
I think the bangle period ruined BMW for me, just utter dogs
t looking cars, the new ones are better but a victim of their own popularity for me, I see a new 3 series and I just think its the modern Cortina.Someone will quote me and slag me off, saying how successful they are, but I couldn't give a toss about that, for me they were a great manufacturer that sold out.
plenty said:
otolith said:
Can't say I find my Elise lacking in overtaking performance - it does 0-100 in about 13 seconds, which even now is the top tier of hot hatches. I think if that's not enough to overtake easily, your technique is off. It tails off faster at the top end than a 300bhp/1500kg car, but three figure overtakes are probably not something you want to make a habit of.
That’s a very polite way of phrasing a sentiment that gets repeated often in these parts nowadays, aka “you must drive like a loon if you need a car that’s faster than mine”. Which IMO is the Godwin of petrolhead discussions.It’s great that you find the performance of your Elise adequate. I wouldn’t, which is why I’d only opt for for an SC or V6 model.
SidewaysSi said:
It's all about straight line performance and paddle shifts these days. Feel, handling etc. is sadly lost on most people.
I am agreement with this. Conversely the opinion that only an Elise or Caterham can deliver proper driving thrills is equally blinkered.Personally if I couldn't have a 2 seater, I would pick a small lightweight (as far as possible) coupe or saloon. Maybe a tweaked E36 for example. Or a hot hatch type car e.g. Megane Trophy, ITR etc. Something exploitable, quick enough and fun on the road. I just don't want 2 tonnes of M5 etc. as mass severely hampers on road fun IMO.
Techchnology in cars is also completely wasted on me. I just don't want or need any of the toys a new luxury car offers. A steering wheel, good seats and manual windows is plenty. An electric passenger mirror does however come in handy for parking. Possibly air con but I am not fussed and as far as possible, definitely no sunroof.
plenty said:
otolith said:
Can't say I find my Elise lacking in overtaking performance - it does 0-100 in about 13 seconds, which even now is the top tier of hot hatches. I think if that's not enough to overtake easily, your technique is off. It tails off faster at the top end than a 300bhp/1500kg car, but three figure overtakes are probably not something you want to make a habit of.
That’s a very polite way of phrasing a sentiment that gets repeated often in these parts nowadays, aka “you must drive like a loon if you need a car that’s faster than mine”. Which IMO is the Godwin of petrolhead discussions.It’s great that you find the performance of your Elise adequate. I wouldn’t, which is why I’d only opt for for an SC or V6 model.
SidewaysSi said:
It's all about straight line performance and paddle shifts these days. Feel, handling etc. is sadly lost on most people.
I am agreement with this. Conversely the opinion that only an Elise or Caterham can deliver proper driving thrills is equally blinkered.Personally if I couldn't have a 2 seater, I would pick a small lightweight (as far as possible) coupe or saloon. Maybe a tweaked E36 for example. Or a hot hatch type car e.g. 295 GTI,Megane Trophy, ITR etc. Something exploitable, quick enough and fun on the road. I just don't want 2 tonnes of M5 etc. as mass severely hampers on road fun IMO.
Technology in cars is also completely wasted on me. I just don't want or need any of the toys a new luxury car offers. A steering wheel, good seatsand manual windows is plenty. An electric passenger mirror does however come in handy for parking. Possibly air con but I am not fussed and as far as possible, definitely no sunroof.
Edited by SidewaysSi on Saturday 8th August 07:46
BucksFizz said:
Money no option and practicality of no consideration, who would take a sports saloon over a 2 seat sports car? (1 car garage!)
I’ve owned both and admire them almost equally as much, but I can’t help but learn more towards the 4 door saloon even though I don’t need more than 2 seats.
I can’t put my finger on it really, I mean I’ll stick with the 2 seat sports car for the time being because it seems like the sensible choice but I do envy super saloons when they roll up next to me at the lights.
Not me. It would have to be the sports car. They represent the closest thing to a pure driving experience and the saloon is a step or three away from that. This is one of those slightly daft fun questions though, not least because hardly anyone has an unlimited budget and no practicality to consider. If those conditions do apply, they'll still own several vehicles.I’ve owned both and admire them almost equally as much, but I can’t help but learn more towards the 4 door saloon even though I don’t need more than 2 seats.
I can’t put my finger on it really, I mean I’ll stick with the 2 seat sports car for the time being because it seems like the sensible choice but I do envy super saloons when they roll up next to me at the lights.
Really looking forward to our holiday at the end of the month. We've been asked to marshal on a classic car rally in the alps and italian lakes, and will be driving in some fantastic country. We've then got a week afterwards to perhaps revisit the best bits. 
Really looking forward to doing it in our Boxster. Two weeks luggage in the front boot, all our marshalling gear (chairs, stakes, signs, hammers, clip boards etc) in the back boot. Nowt but ourselves in the cabin.
Really looking forward to getting roof down amongst those staggering mountains. I think it's going to be stunning.
I would *hate* to have to do it in a saloon, of any sorts.
And yes, in reference to a post on page one,I will be a fat old bald bloke in dodgy shades (as ill most on the rally, I suspect) but I chuckle at young guys with their shouty exhausts on hatchbacks (like the one I saw this morning) and Beemers and the like 'cos I know they rarely go anywhere.
Really looking forward to doing it in our Boxster. Two weeks luggage in the front boot, all our marshalling gear (chairs, stakes, signs, hammers, clip boards etc) in the back boot. Nowt but ourselves in the cabin.
Really looking forward to getting roof down amongst those staggering mountains. I think it's going to be stunning.
I would *hate* to have to do it in a saloon, of any sorts.
And yes, in reference to a post on page one,I will be a fat old bald bloke in dodgy shades (as ill most on the rally, I suspect) but I chuckle at young guys with their shouty exhausts on hatchbacks (like the one I saw this morning) and Beemers and the like 'cos I know they rarely go anywhere.
heebeegeetee said:
Really looking forward to our holiday at the end of the month. We've been asked to marshal on a classic car rally in the alps and italian lakes, and will be driving in some fantastic country. We've then got a week afterwards to perhaps revisit the best bits.
Really looking forward to doing it in our Boxster. Two weeks luggage in the front boot, all our marshalling gear (chairs, stakes, signs, hammers, clip boards etc) in the back boot. Nowt but ourselves in the cabin.
Really looking forward to getting roof down amongst those staggering mountains. I think it's going to be stunning.
I would *hate* to have to do it in a saloon, of any sorts.
And yes, in reference to a post on page one,I will be a fat old bald bloke in dodgy shades (as ill most on the rally, I suspect) but I chuckle at young guys with their shouty exhausts on hatchbacks (like the one I saw this morning) and Beemers and the like 'cos I know they rarely go anywhere.
Get yourself some nice Ray Ban Aviators for the trip.Really looking forward to doing it in our Boxster. Two weeks luggage in the front boot, all our marshalling gear (chairs, stakes, signs, hammers, clip boards etc) in the back boot. Nowt but ourselves in the cabin.
Really looking forward to getting roof down amongst those staggering mountains. I think it's going to be stunning.
I would *hate* to have to do it in a saloon, of any sorts.
And yes, in reference to a post on page one,I will be a fat old bald bloke in dodgy shades (as ill most on the rally, I suspect) but I chuckle at young guys with their shouty exhausts on hatchbacks (like the one I saw this morning) and Beemers and the like 'cos I know they rarely go anywhere.
There are times I prefer a saloon over an estate and vice versa.
1. Less weight
2. Less cabin noise
3. In an emergency stop or accident situation stuff in the saloon boot will not be flying round the cabin
4. Handling
We have one of each - I'd probably go fast estate next time or no saloon again now as family chores practicality is always important.
1. Less weight
2. Less cabin noise
3. In an emergency stop or accident situation stuff in the saloon boot will not be flying round the cabin
4. Handling
We have one of each - I'd probably go fast estate next time or no saloon again now as family chores practicality is always important.
plenty said:
What I'm getting at, is that while a Caterham and Elise are capable of offering more ultimate thrills given the right conditions, an M3 or a hot hatch offers a much wider array of occasions to enjoy.
I do like air con in fact, which will particularly come in useful on my forthcoming trip to Spain and Portugal in a few weeks. Tomorrow I drive to Wales to savour the best roads that country has to offer. There's a guy in an Exige coming with me and no doubt on Saturday in the blazing sunshine he might have 10% more fun than me. However when it buckets down over the triangle on Sunday I'll be pretty glad I'm in my AWD sports saloon.
When I go to Scotland and the Pennines in the late autumn, when it's bound be damp and grip conditions less than ideal, all of the Lotus guys will have put their cars away for the season
Exactly why I have an m5 and SCd Elise.I do like air con in fact, which will particularly come in useful on my forthcoming trip to Spain and Portugal in a few weeks. Tomorrow I drive to Wales to savour the best roads that country has to offer. There's a guy in an Exige coming with me and no doubt on Saturday in the blazing sunshine he might have 10% more fun than me. However when it buckets down over the triangle on Sunday I'll be pretty glad I'm in my AWD sports saloon.
When I go to Scotland and the Pennines in the late autumn, when it's bound be damp and grip conditions less than ideal, all of the Lotus guys will have put their cars away for the season
Roof off is epic too.
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