Sports saloons vs sports cars
Discussion
Sports car.
The only good driving reason for big cars is because you need the space. They are a compromise. You might like the aesthetic, but a big fat car is worse for actual driving the thing.
I don't really see the attraction of super saloons and estates. You're kidding yourself if you think it's the kind of car that will get you out of bed on a Sunday morning. So you're driving around in something vastly more expensive for the sake of performance you won't and can't use. It must be mostly about feeling big / cool or bragging to mates.
(The above is an extreme version of my views for the sake of argument).
The only good driving reason for big cars is because you need the space. They are a compromise. You might like the aesthetic, but a big fat car is worse for actual driving the thing.
I don't really see the attraction of super saloons and estates. You're kidding yourself if you think it's the kind of car that will get you out of bed on a Sunday morning. So you're driving around in something vastly more expensive for the sake of performance you won't and can't use. It must be mostly about feeling big / cool or bragging to mates.
(The above is an extreme version of my views for the sake of argument).
ORD said:
Sports car.
The only good driving reason for big cars is because you need the space. They are a compromise. You might like the aesthetic, but a big fat car is worse for actual driving the thing.
I don't really see the attraction of super saloons and estates. You're kidding yourself if you think it's the kind of car that will get you out of bed on a Sunday morning. So you're driving around in something vastly more expensive for the sake of performance you won't and can't use. It must be mostly about feeling big / cool or bragging to mates.
(The above is an extreme version of my views for the sake of argument).
@@@@ ##### @@@@ dearThe only good driving reason for big cars is because you need the space. They are a compromise. You might like the aesthetic, but a big fat car is worse for actual driving the thing.
I don't really see the attraction of super saloons and estates. You're kidding yourself if you think it's the kind of car that will get you out of bed on a Sunday morning. So you're driving around in something vastly more expensive for the sake of performance you won't and can't use. It must be mostly about feeling big / cool or bragging to mates.
(The above is an extreme version of my views for the sake of argument).
the above are my extreme views on your comments for the sake of argument
RobM77 said:
I should finished by saying that I doubt I'll ever own a full fat sports saloon like an M3 or RS6, because for me whilst they drive better than their more humble cousins, the differences aren't as great as you might initially think, so given that budget I'd always rather have two cars - the mundane spec sports saloon and a sports car
Agree entirely.Sports car every time.
Having drove a few super saloons I still can't see the attraction. I couldn't use the straight line power on my commute or want to with the family in, and the bulk/weight wouldn't get me excited about going for a solo early morning road trip to my favourite driving roads.
Each to there own, but I am a believer in the right tool for the job and a sports car or an old school hot hatch suits what I enjoy in driving.
Having drove a few super saloons I still can't see the attraction. I couldn't use the straight line power on my commute or want to with the family in, and the bulk/weight wouldn't get me excited about going for a solo early morning road trip to my favourite driving roads.
Each to there own, but I am a believer in the right tool for the job and a sports car or an old school hot hatch suits what I enjoy in driving.
What sports car would you buy that surpasses a 10k Impreza, 15k RS Megane or a 20k M3?
Caterham? Good for a quick blat to clear the cobwebs - I'm not going to consider one for proper road trips.
An Elige may have the handling and charisma boxes ticked, but they lack grunt (unless you fork out 25k plus for an SC car), and their usability window is more limited: in the rain on a tour of North Wales, you'd be constantly holding back unless you're a powerfully-built driving god. Assuming you can even get in one.
A Boxster? IMO not as exciting as any of the above three sports saloons.
Z4M? These appeal to me a lot, but the equivalent M3 handles better.
S2000? Only if you really want VTEC and can live with its limitations.
In fact I can't think of many other out-and-out sports cars. The fact is, the sports saloon is the sports car nowadays.
Caterham? Good for a quick blat to clear the cobwebs - I'm not going to consider one for proper road trips.
An Elige may have the handling and charisma boxes ticked, but they lack grunt (unless you fork out 25k plus for an SC car), and their usability window is more limited: in the rain on a tour of North Wales, you'd be constantly holding back unless you're a powerfully-built driving god. Assuming you can even get in one.
A Boxster? IMO not as exciting as any of the above three sports saloons.
Z4M? These appeal to me a lot, but the equivalent M3 handles better.
S2000? Only if you really want VTEC and can live with its limitations.
In fact I can't think of many other out-and-out sports cars. The fact is, the sports saloon is the sports car nowadays.
plenty said:
What sports car would you buy that surpasses a 10k Impreza, 15k RS Megane or a 20k M3?
Caterham? Good for a quick blat to clear the cobwebs - I'm not going to consider one for proper road trips.
An Elige may have the handling and charisma boxes ticked, but they lack grunt (unless you fork out 25k plus for an SC car), and their usability window is more limited: in the rain on a tour of North Wales, you'd be constantly holding back unless you're a powerfully-built driving god. Assuming you can even get in one.
A Boxster? IMO not as exciting as any of the above three sports saloons.
Z4M? These appeal to me a lot, but the equivalent M3 handles better.
S2000? Only if you really want VTEC and can live with its limitations.
In fact I can't think of many other out-and-out sports cars. The fact is, the sports saloon is the sports car nowadays.
Not sure what you are getting at but a sports saloon is nowhere near a proper sports car for handling, feel and finesse. You are kidding yourself if you think an M3 gets remotely close to a Caterham or Elise. Personally I could happily live with a Lotus as my sole car. Of course you you like air con, fat seats and a nice stereo, you may disagree. Caterham? Good for a quick blat to clear the cobwebs - I'm not going to consider one for proper road trips.
An Elige may have the handling and charisma boxes ticked, but they lack grunt (unless you fork out 25k plus for an SC car), and their usability window is more limited: in the rain on a tour of North Wales, you'd be constantly holding back unless you're a powerfully-built driving god. Assuming you can even get in one.
A Boxster? IMO not as exciting as any of the above three sports saloons.
Z4M? These appeal to me a lot, but the equivalent M3 handles better.
S2000? Only if you really want VTEC and can live with its limitations.
In fact I can't think of many other out-and-out sports cars. The fact is, the sports saloon is the sports car nowadays.
SidewaysSi said:
Not sure what you are getting at but a sports saloon is nowhere near a proper sports car for handling, feel and finesse. You are kidding yourself if you think an M3 gets remotely close to a Caterham or Elise. Personally I could happily live with a Lotus as my sole car. Of course you you like air con, fat seats and a nice stereo, you may disagree.
What I'm getting at, is that while a Caterham and Elise are capable of offering more ultimate thrills given the right conditions, an M3 or a hot hatch offers a much wider array of occasions to enjoy.I do like air con in fact, which will particularly come in useful on my forthcoming trip to Spain and Portugal in a few weeks. Tomorrow I drive to Wales to savour the best roads that country has to offer. There's a guy in an Exige coming with me and no doubt on Saturday in the blazing sunshine he might have 10% more fun than me. However when it buckets down over the triangle on Sunday I'll be pretty glad I'm in my AWD sports saloon.
When I go to Scotland and the Pennines in the late autumn, when it's bound be damp and grip conditions less than ideal, all of the Lotus guys will have put their cars away for the season
Although my current 3.6 Skoda Estate is my main set of wheels, my '95 1700 Supersprint Caterham saw regular use for six years or so including a few long hauls from the UK to Perpignan and back. Nothing comes close dynamically especially when I am on my own.
Four up with family and kit though? Skoda is a superb (no pun really intended) for that but true to this thread an E32 Alpina B12 for a saloon choice would be on my list behind the '89 Aston Vantage simply because the Aston is not classed as a 'saloon'.
Four up with family and kit though? Skoda is a superb (no pun really intended) for that but true to this thread an E32 Alpina B12 for a saloon choice would be on my list behind the '89 Aston Vantage simply because the Aston is not classed as a 'saloon'.
plenty said:
What I'm getting at, is that while a Caterham and Elise are capable of offering more ultimate thrills given the right conditions, an M3 or a hot hatch offers a much wider array of occasions to enjoy.
I do like air con in fact, which will particularly come in useful on my forthcoming trip to Spain and Portugal in a few weeks. Tomorrow I drive to Wales to savour the best roads that country has to offer. There's a guy in an Exige coming with me and no doubt on Saturday in the blazing sunshine he might have 10% more fun than me. However when it buckets down over the triangle on Sunday I'll be pretty glad I'm in my AWD sports saloon.
When I go to Scotland and the Pennines in the late autumn, when it's bound be damp and grip conditions less than ideal, all of the Lotus guys will have put their cars away for the season
I would say rather more than 10%. A large saloon is a compromise too far for me. I much rather run a proper sports car and have a decent comfortable saloon with no sporty pretensions whatsoever. Both will have a focus that a 'jack of all trades' saloon can't hope to match.I do like air con in fact, which will particularly come in useful on my forthcoming trip to Spain and Portugal in a few weeks. Tomorrow I drive to Wales to savour the best roads that country has to offer. There's a guy in an Exige coming with me and no doubt on Saturday in the blazing sunshine he might have 10% more fun than me. However when it buckets down over the triangle on Sunday I'll be pretty glad I'm in my AWD sports saloon.
When I go to Scotland and the Pennines in the late autumn, when it's bound be damp and grip conditions less than ideal, all of the Lotus guys will have put their cars away for the season
The problem for me is that the saloon is always going to be a compromise in some way.
If we are talking about coupe vs. saloon of the same car, generally the coupe will be less practical, and the current crop of saloons tend to look better anyway (not true in the past..) but then an estate is even more practical..
My problem is that I don't think I'd like that compromise, which is why 1 car simply doesn't work for me. I'm perfectly happy with my Alfa diesel for 95% of my driving duties knowing that when I take my Elise out it'll be such an amazing driving experience.
Having a car that doesn't handle as well, that is easier to drive, less of an event and filled with more power than you ever need on the road seems completely pointless to me.
If we are talking about coupe vs. saloon of the same car, generally the coupe will be less practical, and the current crop of saloons tend to look better anyway (not true in the past..) but then an estate is even more practical..
My problem is that I don't think I'd like that compromise, which is why 1 car simply doesn't work for me. I'm perfectly happy with my Alfa diesel for 95% of my driving duties knowing that when I take my Elise out it'll be such an amazing driving experience.
Having a car that doesn't handle as well, that is easier to drive, less of an event and filled with more power than you ever need on the road seems completely pointless to me.
Corranga said:
Having a car that doesn't handle as well, that is easier to drive, less of an event and filled with more power than you ever need on the road seems completely pointless to me.
Let me paraphrase that from a different perspective: having a car that you have to tiptoe around in in less than ideal conditions, which gets stuck behind other cars because of lack of overtaking oomph when driving companions with more horses are far up the road, means the number of occasions when I could use it are rather limited.Don't get me wrong, I adore the Elige and the Caterham and a 3.5 Exige or Evora would do very nicely thank you, but in terms of what you can buy at a price point that most of us are realistically willing to pay, an M3 or Megane or a Mitsubaru is more fun more of the time and for that I'm okay with sacrificing the last nth of thrills that I might get in a short blat in the dry by myself which only represents a small fraction of my driving diet anyway.
Can't say I find my Elise lacking in overtaking performance - it does 0-100 in about 13 seconds, which even now is the top tier of hot hatches. I think if that's not enough to overtake easily, your technique is off. It tails off faster at the top end than a 300bhp/1500kg car, but three figure overtakes are probably not something you want to make a habit of.
otolith said:
Can't say I find my Elise lacking in overtaking performance - it does 0-100 in about 13 seconds, which even now is the top tier of hot hatches. I think if that's not enough to overtake easily, your technique is off. It tails off faster at the top end than a 300bhp/1500kg car, but three figure overtakes are probably not something you want to make a habit of.
It's all about straight line performance and paddle shifts these days. Feel, handling etc. is sadly lost on most people. I'm a little concerned by the somewhat all-or-nothing thinking shown in this thread.
I have what I consider to be a proper sports car (as opposed to a cute little easy-to-drive 2 seater designed for everyday use). It happens to be a 2+2 and have a rather large boot so practicality can be ignored.
I also have a supersaloon because I just enjoy having a lot of power and a decent handling set up. I rarely have the foot hard down driving the latter, but it's much easier to get past a 45mph everywhere moron in a Volkswagen on a B-road with well north of 500bhp available than it would be in a Mondeo diesel with a family of 4, a full tank of fuel and the boot full of shopping bringing its accelerative and cornering performance to something resembling a battleship.
Furthermore, you can feel good about your car all the time, rather than only when you have your sports car.
That is somewhat budget driven, I realise, but none of these posts trying to point out that a supersaloon is a compromise are breaking any new ground. We know that. The sports car is a compromise too but it compromised other things.
I have what I consider to be a proper sports car (as opposed to a cute little easy-to-drive 2 seater designed for everyday use). It happens to be a 2+2 and have a rather large boot so practicality can be ignored.
I also have a supersaloon because I just enjoy having a lot of power and a decent handling set up. I rarely have the foot hard down driving the latter, but it's much easier to get past a 45mph everywhere moron in a Volkswagen on a B-road with well north of 500bhp available than it would be in a Mondeo diesel with a family of 4, a full tank of fuel and the boot full of shopping bringing its accelerative and cornering performance to something resembling a battleship.
Furthermore, you can feel good about your car all the time, rather than only when you have your sports car.
That is somewhat budget driven, I realise, but none of these posts trying to point out that a supersaloon is a compromise are breaking any new ground. We know that. The sports car is a compromise too but it compromised other things.
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