Driving enjoyment
Discussion
otolith said:
I don't believe you can condense that into one dimension. Although you can make objective measurements of many of the factors at work, the weighting of their desirability is entirely subjective.
You wouldn't need to combine them, it'd be up to the buyer to decide the weighting of the indvidual area's rating for them having made sure a wide enough range of things are rated. More than likely any such system would be heavily compromised by the car manufacturers, its real world application would be flawed.All of the current marketing stats outside of MPG are of questionable value as there is no standardised measurement of them, unless you have x tyre pressure or y fuel type and load, z type of tarmac, you can't hit such and such 0-60. Even the regulated MPG test is being gamed.
I have a book on the design and engineering of the Mclaren F1 that has a fascinating section on benchmarking against other cars. Gordon Murray's team went out and bought a variety of highly regarded (I was going to say 'competing' then!) sports cars and measured parameters on all of them. The results are in the book. One thing that really stood out for me was how well the NSX fared on all the tests - it was ahead of many established and/or more expensive sports cars in most if not all objective measures that Mclaren applied.
tankplanker said:
ou wouldn't need to combine them, it'd be up to the buyer to decide the weighting of the indvidual area's rating for them having made sure a wide enough range of things are rated. More than likely any such system would be heavily compromised by the car manufacturers, its real world application would be flawed.
You'd probably need to be LJKS to interpret the data anyway!RobM77 said:
It's a good idea - I for one get a bit fed up with the almost entirely subjective reviews of cars in UK magazines. The trouble is that it's a tricky set of things to quantify. As an example, I love driving my 3 series, but 60 pages of argument recently happened on General Gassing telling me that I was wrong and deluded and might as well be in a Mondeo, which they find logical, but I find just plain odd. Perhaps though objective measures could actually help in this muddy area, removing personal preferences and quantifying what we like about cars? Steering feel can I'm sure be measured with the right equipment showing changing forces on the wheels and changing forces at the steering wheel, likewise brake pedal feel and even clutch feel. Throttle lag and response could easily be measured, the former by datalogging throttle pedal position and engine initial response, and the latter from throttle position and then engine pickup of revs. Many a time I've read a rave review of a car only to book a test drive and find out the throttle lag is hideous - and as for throttle response, cars like the F40 are reportedly dreadful, but I don't remember it being mentioned at the time in reviews. Handling could I presume be broken down into various metrics (yaw respond to steering input as a function of slip angle, effects of weight transfer etc), but it would be an extremely difficult thing to quantify, because there are far too many variables combined that all have an effect on how a car responds. The results of handling objectivity would probably end up being misleading - better to stick with subjectivity on that one I think.
I would like to see more objective measures in car reviews though, for things that can easily be measured and are reasonably isolated and not affected by other things. Autocar have even stopped giving their decibels at 70mph readings - something I thought was very useful for cars that will be used a lot on the motorway.
That's actually not correct - they still show the levels at idle, max acceleration, 30, 50 and 70I would like to see more objective measures in car reviews though, for things that can easily be measured and are reasonably isolated and not affected by other things. Autocar have even stopped giving their decibels at 70mph readings - something I thought was very useful for cars that will be used a lot on the motorway.
I don't bother writing on here very often because of the snobbery around 0-60 top speed track times blah blah blah. I find varying responses to my wheels of choice mostly negative from people too scared to even give them a run out to see what it drives like. I enjoy my driving. I drive many Norfolk lanes 'quickly' enjoy the handling, speed ride quality and always leave with a huge grin. I look forward to the drive to work in what many would consider their other halfs weekend toy (not a rabbit). why? because it is such a great car to drive around country lanes. its is FUN. what is it? a smart roadster. I don't care what you all think and say, I enjoy it, it makes me smile and as a bonus its cheap to tax, cheap to insure and does 50mpg. oh, and it leaks .... but so what?
As much as the question is subjective, it could still be classed as valid.
An ex-girlfriend of mine had a Mk1 Mazda MX-5 that was great fun, but I didn’t like it as it was underpowered but that wasn’t what it was all about. I liked powerful cars with lots of grip. This didn’t really have either, but it was still definitely fun. I think one with a turbo would be immense 'fun'.
Im sure there are people out there who have driven a car that made them giggle but they wouldn’t actually own it.
An ex-girlfriend of mine had a Mk1 Mazda MX-5 that was great fun, but I didn’t like it as it was underpowered but that wasn’t what it was all about. I liked powerful cars with lots of grip. This didn’t really have either, but it was still definitely fun. I think one with a turbo would be immense 'fun'.
Im sure there are people out there who have driven a car that made them giggle but they wouldn’t actually own it.
Driving fun.. as someone said, it's so subjective! I am still mourning the (house-purchase fiscally enforced!) sale of my Royale Sabre kit car. In so many measurable ways I'm sure it would be considered by many to be a dreadful car by today's standards - the donor vehicle was a Ford Sierra, it was totally 'old school' with no driver aids (potentially lively in the wet!) and certainly no air-con or other 'mod cons'; noisy, cramped, and hot, and even the engine wasn't that powerful - about 230bhp from a bored out essex V6.
HOWEVER, it looked and sounded fantastic and on a dry day with the hood down, on a nice bendy road, with the occasional waves from bystanders (and astonished pointing from small children!) it really gave a wonderful sense of occasion and well-being, and the challenge of driving quickly was totally engrossing!
I even took it to a track day once, just for fun, and it was (just) quick enough to surprise people ('cos it looked so old!) and that was great fun too.
Let's put it this way, once (if!) finances settle down, and if SWMBO permits, I fully intend to build (or get) another one..!
HOWEVER, it looked and sounded fantastic and on a dry day with the hood down, on a nice bendy road, with the occasional waves from bystanders (and astonished pointing from small children!) it really gave a wonderful sense of occasion and well-being, and the challenge of driving quickly was totally engrossing!
I even took it to a track day once, just for fun, and it was (just) quick enough to surprise people ('cos it looked so old!) and that was great fun too.
Let's put it this way, once (if!) finances settle down, and if SWMBO permits, I fully intend to build (or get) another one..!
Andy665 said:
To me driving enjoyment is about how a car makes you feel rather than what it does…..
…… people wanted to talk to me when I got out of the Alfa at petrol stations etc whereas they ignored me in the Boxster. Everytime I walked away from the Alfa I couldn't help but turn and look whereas I never did with the Porsche …….. etc
Now you're talking. The way other people react to your car can make you love every second you're in it. Whereas if people ignore it or, worse still, give it 'abusive' sign language or laugh at it, then it's hardly going to be enjoyable to drive, even if it has the best driving dynamics of any car on the road. I had the same drab experience as you when I had a Boxster, whereas my XL1 literally stops traffic and everyone wants to talk about it.…… people wanted to talk to me when I got out of the Alfa at petrol stations etc whereas they ignored me in the Boxster. Everytime I walked away from the Alfa I couldn't help but turn and look whereas I never did with the Porsche …….. etc
Do you not already get this with Movies, books, computer games etc?
Sure we can mix things up into a number, (seats x loadpsace) + (horsepower x 1/weight) + (0-60/mpg), but all that happens is you end up with something grey, that averages things, or you factor things you don't care about.
The way to do it surely is a) Know what genre you like, b) Find a reviewer who you trust, usually through experience c) learn what things are a definite yes/no
Then as time comes to buy a car, read the reviewer/publication you best align with, check out the ones that fit your genre, and remove any that have any things/issues you really don't like.
Yes it is trusting, yes sometimes it might not be perfect, but the idea is that they're good at assessing, they have a similar desire, and priorities to yourself and so you'll likely like what they do.
So for example I read Evo, not Autocar.
Sure we can mix things up into a number, (seats x loadpsace) + (horsepower x 1/weight) + (0-60/mpg), but all that happens is you end up with something grey, that averages things, or you factor things you don't care about.
The way to do it surely is a) Know what genre you like, b) Find a reviewer who you trust, usually through experience c) learn what things are a definite yes/no
Then as time comes to buy a car, read the reviewer/publication you best align with, check out the ones that fit your genre, and remove any that have any things/issues you really don't like.
Yes it is trusting, yes sometimes it might not be perfect, but the idea is that they're good at assessing, they have a similar desire, and priorities to yourself and so you'll likely like what they do.
So for example I read Evo, not Autocar.
lolSmiles per Gallon?
Sadly as pointed earlier out everyone has a different metric on how cars rate, personally I like engineering oddities, I like the Mazda Xedos 2.3 Miller cycle engine, and the Mazda MX-3 1.8 V6, I mean why would you put a 1.8 V6 in it when they had a 1.8 I4 at the same time in other cars. Same goes for the W8 Passat.
Sadly as pointed earlier out everyone has a different metric on how cars rate, personally I like engineering oddities, I like the Mazda Xedos 2.3 Miller cycle engine, and the Mazda MX-3 1.8 V6, I mean why would you put a 1.8 V6 in it when they had a 1.8 I4 at the same time in other cars. Same goes for the W8 Passat.
Objectivity is in some ways the enemy of enjoyment. Measuring everything seems only to 'digitalise' the whole thing.
I've had an MR2 and a RAW Striker, and I've driven plenty in MX-5's, but the most enjoyable cars I've owned have been E34 M5 3.8's. More refined than the others, so they don't tire you with NVH. Lovely smooth straight 6, sonorous note, microscopic throttle response, enough grunt for the road at 0-100 in 13.6. But no driver aids beyond ABS. The car didn't need it. It was always on your side, in any weather, never looking to save you from yourself but never looking to hang you out to dry either. You had to think before you put your foot to the floor in the wet in the first three gears, but it would always give you messages and time to sort yourself out. All the controls were beautifully analogue, especially the throttle. No silly sport maps needed. The later iterations were always about adding more, grip, torque, power. I preferred my old M5 to my brother's Boxster S, and so spent silly money on a brand new engine for one of them.
But when you drink a nice wine more is better only up to a certain point, and then it just becomes dizzying, and all the nuance and class is swamped.
I've had an MR2 and a RAW Striker, and I've driven plenty in MX-5's, but the most enjoyable cars I've owned have been E34 M5 3.8's. More refined than the others, so they don't tire you with NVH. Lovely smooth straight 6, sonorous note, microscopic throttle response, enough grunt for the road at 0-100 in 13.6. But no driver aids beyond ABS. The car didn't need it. It was always on your side, in any weather, never looking to save you from yourself but never looking to hang you out to dry either. You had to think before you put your foot to the floor in the wet in the first three gears, but it would always give you messages and time to sort yourself out. All the controls were beautifully analogue, especially the throttle. No silly sport maps needed. The later iterations were always about adding more, grip, torque, power. I preferred my old M5 to my brother's Boxster S, and so spent silly money on a brand new engine for one of them.
But when you drink a nice wine more is better only up to a certain point, and then it just becomes dizzying, and all the nuance and class is swamped.
Biggest smile by the hour.
All subjective but combination of perfect damping, agility, steering feel and all controls in harmony relative to a cars acceleration and braking. A sense of connectedness to the road. An ability to feel weight transfer and its relationship to understeer and oversteer. Car must be compliant and have some body movement so not locked down too much. Nothing to do with cornering speed.
Sounds familiar to any Lotus owner. MX5, Caterham, some BMWs.
All subjective but combination of perfect damping, agility, steering feel and all controls in harmony relative to a cars acceleration and braking. A sense of connectedness to the road. An ability to feel weight transfer and its relationship to understeer and oversteer. Car must be compliant and have some body movement so not locked down too much. Nothing to do with cornering speed.
Sounds familiar to any Lotus owner. MX5, Caterham, some BMWs.
Edited by Lotus1478 on Monday 3rd August 16:58
RobM77 said:
It's a good idea - I for one get a bit fed up with the almost entirely subjective reviews of cars in UK magazines. The trouble is that it's a tricky set of things to quantify. As an example, I love driving my 3 series, but 60 pages of argument recently happened on General Gassing telling me that I was wrong and deluded and might as well be in a Mondeo, which they find logical, but I find just plain odd.
I'm surprised that you rate your 320d so highly as a driving tool. For every good review I've read at least 10 bad ones on PH that rate it as a wheezy, laggy diesel with all of it's inherent drawbacks.Regarding magazine reviews, I still find them very useful (such as EVO), primarily because the reviewers (e.g. Meaden, Catchpole, Bovington) are very skilled drivers who can give genuine feedback on the vehicle dynamics compared to peers. I find this far more useful than a review from a PHer who's never taken a vehicle on a track and couldn't drive their way out of paper bag.
On FWD, Evo this month review the M135i against the latest 4 or 5 hot-hatches, all FWD bar the Golf R. The BMW finished in last place, it's inherent RWD characteristics viewed as worthless when compared against more competent rivals.
A shed, following a weekend of spannering, driven hard on a good day, can bring a smile.
That first drive on your own after passing your test, can bring a smile.
An old school open top (Lotus 7, MX5, Spitfire, MG...) pootling around country lanes to your favorite pub and back can bring a smile.
A well driven lap on your favorite track in your stripped out Jap buzz box can bring a smile.
A mate gives you the keys to his '87 Aston Vantage and says 'take it for a spin...' can bring a smile (dream mode on)
Horses for courses. If you like cars and driving, whatever it may be, then you are probably enjoying yourself.
That first drive on your own after passing your test, can bring a smile.
An old school open top (Lotus 7, MX5, Spitfire, MG...) pootling around country lanes to your favorite pub and back can bring a smile.
A well driven lap on your favorite track in your stripped out Jap buzz box can bring a smile.
A mate gives you the keys to his '87 Aston Vantage and says 'take it for a spin...' can bring a smile (dream mode on)
Horses for courses. If you like cars and driving, whatever it may be, then you are probably enjoying yourself.
Lotus1478 said:
Biggest smile by the hour.
All subjective but combination of perfect damping, agility, steering feel and all controls in harmony relative to a cars acceleration and braking. A sense of connectedness to the road. An ability to feel weight transfer and its relationship to understeer and oversteer. Car must be compliant and have some body movement so not locked down too much. Nothing to do with cornering speed.
Sounds familiar to any Lotus owner. MX5, Caterham, some BMWs.
Lotus1478 has summed up beautifully what I would consider the ideal balance of virtues in a car. The thing is, that is not everybody's idea of fun. Some people would get more enjoyment from feeling the tyres grip the tarmac out of a corner, with huge amounts of power and torque firing them up the road. All subjective but combination of perfect damping, agility, steering feel and all controls in harmony relative to a cars acceleration and braking. A sense of connectedness to the road. An ability to feel weight transfer and its relationship to understeer and oversteer. Car must be compliant and have some body movement so not locked down too much. Nothing to do with cornering speed.
Sounds familiar to any Lotus owner. MX5, Caterham, some BMWs.
Edited by Lotus1478 on Monday 3rd August 16:58
A car might achieve an objective "fun" measurement of 8 out of 10, but still leave a keen driver cold.
Olivera said:
Regarding magazine reviews, I still find them very useful (such as EVO), primarily because the reviewers (e.g. Meaden, Catchpole, Bovington) are very skilled drivers who can give genuine feedback on the vehicle dynamics compared to peers. I find this far more useful than a review from a PHer who's never taken a vehicle on a track and couldn't drive their way out of paper bag.
There's a lot of truth in this for me - especially when you work out which journos have tastes similar to your ownGassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff