Driving enjoyment
Discussion
s m said:
RobM77 said:
I would like to see more objective measures in car reviews though, for things that can easily be measured and are reasonably isolated and not affected by other things. Autocar have even stopped giving their decibels at 70mph readings - something I thought was very useful for cars that will be used a lot on the motorway.
That's actually not correct - they still show the levels at idle, max acceleration, 30, 50 and 70Would you rather listen to a 60dB waterfall, or scratching on a blackboard?
They both have the same sound levels!
gck303 said:
s m said:
RobM77 said:
I would like to see more objective measures in car reviews though, for things that can easily be measured and are reasonably isolated and not affected by other things. Autocar have even stopped giving their decibels at 70mph readings - something I thought was very useful for cars that will be used a lot on the motorway.
That's actually not correct - they still show the levels at idle, max acceleration, 30, 50 and 70Would you rather listen to a 60dB waterfall, or scratching on a blackboard?
They both have the same sound levels!
Rob probably hasn't spotted it in the new layouts
I find it ironic that over the years raw driving enjoyment of cars has generally decreased due to excessive regulation and nannying technology, yet on the motorbike side things are still getting better and better..
A typical example is the Ford Focus, now I doubt anyone will argue that the current shape is the best for NVH issues and is the safest in the event of a crash.. Yet I think that the opposite is true in terms of driving enjoyment. This is having experienced them from the MKI (Y reg) to 15 model year, all with relatively similar specification. The older ones progressively give more feedback through the steering and you can feel more about what the car is doing around you, which I think is far more enjoyable... Basically the more insulated from the world you are the less enjoyable the experience I find.
Here is a brief list of the vehicles I have owned or which I currently have access to in order of 'fun factor' first is highest:
S3 Lightweight Land Rover (1974)
TVR Griffith 500 (1996)
TDCI 90 Land rover Defender. (2008)
Lada Riva. (97ish)
Bmw 123d. (2007)
Rover 75 TDCI. (2003)
Toyota AYGO. (2006)
Bikes:
Triumph Street Triple (2008)
Piaggio 'Beverly' 350 sport touring (2012).
Yamaha YBR 125 (2007)
A typical example is the Ford Focus, now I doubt anyone will argue that the current shape is the best for NVH issues and is the safest in the event of a crash.. Yet I think that the opposite is true in terms of driving enjoyment. This is having experienced them from the MKI (Y reg) to 15 model year, all with relatively similar specification. The older ones progressively give more feedback through the steering and you can feel more about what the car is doing around you, which I think is far more enjoyable... Basically the more insulated from the world you are the less enjoyable the experience I find.
Here is a brief list of the vehicles I have owned or which I currently have access to in order of 'fun factor' first is highest:
S3 Lightweight Land Rover (1974)
TVR Griffith 500 (1996)
TDCI 90 Land rover Defender. (2008)
Lada Riva. (97ish)
Bmw 123d. (2007)
Rover 75 TDCI. (2003)
Toyota AYGO. (2006)
Bikes:
Triumph Street Triple (2008)
Piaggio 'Beverly' 350 sport touring (2012).
Yamaha YBR 125 (2007)
Joeguard1990 said:
If scientists can find a legitimate way to measure Happiness/pleasure feeling levels then we are laughing.
Same person in every car, measure the levels while driving around a track and there's your new scale.
Except it'd be completely different for each person you tried it on. And probably significantly different between different days for the same person. Same person in every car, measure the levels while driving around a track and there's your new scale.
kambites said:
Joeguard1990 said:
If scientists can find a legitimate way to measure Happiness/pleasure feeling levels then we are laughing.
Same person in every car, measure the levels while driving around a track and there's your new scale.
Except it'd be completely different for each person you tried it on. And probably significantly different between different days for the same person. Same person in every car, measure the levels while driving around a track and there's your new scale.
Fun is very subjective.
I always have fun when driving (not in the streets naturally). I had a BMW Z3 Coupe 3.0 for 15 years (sad to see it go earlier this year), learned to race track it, drift it... And never enjoyed a car so much no matter what the conditions, even on a road trip it was always the most fun car i ever had. Even in the snow it was a total blast with a grin from ear to ear. Today's BMWs are just not comparable i think. More performance is not more fun necessarily.
But i managed to top the fun with the "serious fun" machine, the Ariel Atom (just a 245). And man, nothing compares. It is comfortable (except to get in and strap on), it rides like nothing else, it's hang on your pants fun even over the limit... I've had rides in all car types and makes, and nothing compares again... Well, maybe not for long trips - we did a 1000 mile trip and it wasn't the most comfortable thing (it rained a lot) yet, when it was over, i was ready to do it again!
I always have fun when driving (not in the streets naturally). I had a BMW Z3 Coupe 3.0 for 15 years (sad to see it go earlier this year), learned to race track it, drift it... And never enjoyed a car so much no matter what the conditions, even on a road trip it was always the most fun car i ever had. Even in the snow it was a total blast with a grin from ear to ear. Today's BMWs are just not comparable i think. More performance is not more fun necessarily.
But i managed to top the fun with the "serious fun" machine, the Ariel Atom (just a 245). And man, nothing compares. It is comfortable (except to get in and strap on), it rides like nothing else, it's hang on your pants fun even over the limit... I've had rides in all car types and makes, and nothing compares again... Well, maybe not for long trips - we did a 1000 mile trip and it wasn't the most comfortable thing (it rained a lot) yet, when it was over, i was ready to do it again!
I have driven many cars, included are a Nissan GT-R and a Ferrari 430 Scuderia.
But all three of the cars I have owned are more enjoyable to drive and live with.
2005 Smart Roadster
1991 Nissan Figaro
1972 MGB GT Layland
The smart is the most responsive, light, nippy and enjoyable car I've ever driven. The MGB has classic handling, controls and class, which makes it rewarding when you get a nice day when it's working fully (like the TopGear Alfa Romeo theory in a way) and the Figaro, while slow and lazy, I have never driven such a laid-back, charismatic and attention grabbing car in my life.
If you think I have a microphone to my rear end, just look for these three cars locally and test drive them. There poles apart, but equally fun and more so than a 500hp+ supercar which you can't use fully.
But all three of the cars I have owned are more enjoyable to drive and live with.
2005 Smart Roadster
1991 Nissan Figaro
1972 MGB GT Layland
The smart is the most responsive, light, nippy and enjoyable car I've ever driven. The MGB has classic handling, controls and class, which makes it rewarding when you get a nice day when it's working fully (like the TopGear Alfa Romeo theory in a way) and the Figaro, while slow and lazy, I have never driven such a laid-back, charismatic and attention grabbing car in my life.
If you think I have a microphone to my rear end, just look for these three cars locally and test drive them. There poles apart, but equally fun and more so than a 500hp+ supercar which you can't use fully.
I am no track enthusiast though I do enjoy sampling different cars. When I was working in a big company we often used to swap company cars. I had a large estate car at the time, mid-90s, so often got requests from colleagues wanting to move bulky items etc. One week I did two swaps. The first was bog standard BMW 318i. Not a thrill a minute drive but OK. The next day I borrowed the exact same model but fitted with the M suspension mods and other "M" bits a pieces from the options list. This car was so much more fun to drive. It was then that I understood the effect of improved handling even on a relatively underpowered car.
pointedstarman said:
I've enjoyed every car I've ever driven though often for different reasons, the basic one being it's a car I've not driven before and is therefore interesting. I like cars that can take me on holiday without making me feel knackered and hustle along when I want it to.
The most interesting article I've ever read about driving cars was an interview in Motor Magazine (I think) with a Swedish rally driver who's name I forget who drove a bog standard 1.1 Fiesta (in the 80's) and when asked why he said he could drive it at its absolute limit without breaking too many laws. It would slide without effort and could be thrashed on public roads and barely make the legal limit. In a world where even the most basic of cars can do over 100 mph I think of this interview as making a lot of sense.
I remember something about that article, and I have to agree. Some of the most fun cars I have driven are, Renault 4, Citroen 2CV, Skoda Estelle 105 and a Trabant 601 (I own one). None of them have any power, especially the Trabant and the 2CV, but all are lightweight, have no driver aids and have decent chassis feel. You tend to feel everything in the Trabant, whereas the 4 and 2CV smooth out the worst of road surfaces whilst giving decent feedback, 2CV especially. And no outright performance to get you into real trouble.The most interesting article I've ever read about driving cars was an interview in Motor Magazine (I think) with a Swedish rally driver who's name I forget who drove a bog standard 1.1 Fiesta (in the 80's) and when asked why he said he could drive it at its absolute limit without breaking too many laws. It would slide without effort and could be thrashed on public roads and barely make the legal limit. In a world where even the most basic of cars can do over 100 mph I think of this interview as making a lot of sense.
Imagine a modern car with the same power to weight ratio giving the same sort of driving pleasure / involvement. Wouldn't be much fun, so perhaps there is something in the simplicity of a such cars that lends themselves to feature more of the driver as part of the package.
My mum had a 957cc Fiesta, so I can appreciate the rally driver's sentiments, it was just like the 1.1, but with even less go...
10 years of Lotus Elise 111R
I can sum up driving enjoyment in my title. I must be the best recommendation for driving enjoyment, had the car from new, done 27k, still adore it on every drive. I have always wanted a Ferrari but being a much poorer man this is what I have. I always wanted an Elise ever since they were announced but when the 111R came out I was smitten.
I have been in the motor trade in sales all my life and to this day there really is nothing to touch the enjoyment of driving an Elise111R.
It's so easy and is pure driving pleasure in terms of Handling and fun. I also have a Fiesta ST3 and that is superb but you can't beat the Elise for looks, decimating much more Powerful expensive cars on the road and sometimes supercars that the drivers simply do not know how to drive.
Great fun highly recommended, try one and you'll see what I have enjoyed for so long and why I won't be selling it even though I approach 60 shortly. Simply the best value for money fun car there is for sheer driving enjoyment!
I can sum up driving enjoyment in my title. I must be the best recommendation for driving enjoyment, had the car from new, done 27k, still adore it on every drive. I have always wanted a Ferrari but being a much poorer man this is what I have. I always wanted an Elise ever since they were announced but when the 111R came out I was smitten.
I have been in the motor trade in sales all my life and to this day there really is nothing to touch the enjoyment of driving an Elise111R.
It's so easy and is pure driving pleasure in terms of Handling and fun. I also have a Fiesta ST3 and that is superb but you can't beat the Elise for looks, decimating much more Powerful expensive cars on the road and sometimes supercars that the drivers simply do not know how to drive.
Great fun highly recommended, try one and you'll see what I have enjoyed for so long and why I won't be selling it even though I approach 60 shortly. Simply the best value for money fun car there is for sheer driving enjoyment!
As mentioned, trying to measure anything as the 'best' of anything is increasingly subjective, hence we usually have to defer to the say of 'the majority' and take a concensus view on what is good or bad. As an example - the film industry. There are many good and bad films, for technical reasons, the story, the acting and so forth...
There are far to many emotional variables to make it a science based measure and i think you would be fighting a futile existence trying to define all golden measurement (and besides, if google has anything to say about it, we will all be in driverless cars by 2050 and it all goes out of the window!!)
There are far to many emotional variables to make it a science based measure and i think you would be fighting a futile existence trying to define all golden measurement (and besides, if google has anything to say about it, we will all be in driverless cars by 2050 and it all goes out of the window!!)
Ratbike said:
pointedstarman said:
I've enjoyed every car I've ever driven though often for different reasons, the basic one being it's a car I've not driven before and is therefore interesting. I like cars that can take me on holiday without making me feel knackered and hustle along when I want it to.
The most interesting article I've ever read about driving cars was an interview in Motor Magazine (I think) with a Swedish rally driver who's name I forget who drove a bog standard 1.1 Fiesta (in the 80's) and when asked why he said he could drive it at its absolute limit without breaking too many laws. It would slide without effort and could be thrashed on public roads and barely make the legal limit. In a world where even the most basic of cars can do over 100 mph I think of this interview as making a lot of sense.
I remember something about that article, and I have to agree. Some of the most fun cars I have driven are, Renault 4, Citroen 2CV, Skoda Estelle 105 and a Trabant 601 (I own one). None of them have any power, especially the Trabant and the 2CV, but all are lightweight, have no driver aids and have decent chassis feel. You tend to feel everything in the Trabant, whereas the 4 and 2CV smooth out the worst of road surfaces whilst giving decent feedback, 2CV especially. And no outright performance to get you into real trouble.The most interesting article I've ever read about driving cars was an interview in Motor Magazine (I think) with a Swedish rally driver who's name I forget who drove a bog standard 1.1 Fiesta (in the 80's) and when asked why he said he could drive it at its absolute limit without breaking too many laws. It would slide without effort and could be thrashed on public roads and barely make the legal limit. In a world where even the most basic of cars can do over 100 mph I think of this interview as making a lot of sense.
Imagine a modern car with the same power to weight ratio giving the same sort of driving pleasure / involvement. Wouldn't be much fun, so perhaps there is something in the simplicity of a such cars that lends themselves to feature more of the driver as part of the package.
My mum had a 957cc Fiesta, so I can appreciate the rally driver's sentiments, it was just like the 1.1, but with even less go...
POLARBLUE said:
10 years of Lotus Elise 111R
I can sum up driving enjoyment in my title. I must be the best recommendation for driving enjoyment, had the car from new, done 27k, still adore it on every drive. I have always wanted a Ferrari but being a much poorer man this is what I have. I always wanted an Elise ever since they were announced but when the 111R came out I was smitten.
I have been in the motor trade in sales all my life and to this day there really is nothing to touch the enjoyment of driving an Elise111R.
It's so easy and is pure driving pleasure in terms of Handling and fun. I also have a Fiesta ST3 and that is superb but you can't beat the Elise for looks, decimating much more Powerful expensive cars on the road and sometimes supercars that the drivers simply do not know how to drive.
Great fun highly recommended, try one and you'll see what I have enjoyed for so long and why I won't be selling it even though I approach 60 shortly. Simply the best value for money fun car there is for sheer driving enjoyment!
Sums it up well.I can sum up driving enjoyment in my title. I must be the best recommendation for driving enjoyment, had the car from new, done 27k, still adore it on every drive. I have always wanted a Ferrari but being a much poorer man this is what I have. I always wanted an Elise ever since they were announced but when the 111R came out I was smitten.
I have been in the motor trade in sales all my life and to this day there really is nothing to touch the enjoyment of driving an Elise111R.
It's so easy and is pure driving pleasure in terms of Handling and fun. I also have a Fiesta ST3 and that is superb but you can't beat the Elise for looks, decimating much more Powerful expensive cars on the road and sometimes supercars that the drivers simply do not know how to drive.
Great fun highly recommended, try one and you'll see what I have enjoyed for so long and why I won't be selling it even though I approach 60 shortly. Simply the best value for money fun car there is for sheer driving enjoyment!
And top lurking!
MikeT66 said:
Not sure why people say the MX5 and GT86 need more power, either - both surely are powerful enough and fast enough for day-to-driving, I'd have thought.
I think it is more said buy those who don't own them, often given as a reason for not wanting to own them.If they did have more power, I dare say the same folk would move on to how the interior surfaces were not soft-touch enough.
its a great question and not one that can be easily answered
trouble is i've had some fantastic cars that werent very enjoyable but were superb vehicles and the perfect "tool for the job" eg. an A3 3.2 dsg for London commuting... small, wieldy, discreet, fast, comfortable, cheap. enjoyable? not massively. Conversely for the same commute an early Touareg V10 I enjoyed purely because of its Q car-ness and the way the whole nose rose up accompanied by a deep guttaral roar whenever I got my foot down.
I really enjoyed the whole ownership of a lightly modified Defender. but it was horrible to drive. the enjoyment didnt come from bouncing along at low speed changing gear every 3 seconds thats for sure, but somehow it was still enjoyable because it was "proper". A Maser spyder wasn't enjoyable at all despite a lot of theoretically wonderful component parts because it just didnt have engineering integrity (wobbly, crap gearbox etc)
and finally I enjoyed my 996 gt3 but truth be told it was so mega capable I only really enjoyed it on track. partly fear of licence loss, partly fear of front splitter loss!
whereas I really enjoyed my first track outing in the R26R at the weekend esp when the other half showed me a photo of it getting up on 3 wheels in a tight corner. Slower than a GT3 but in a funny way more enjoyable because of the ridiculousness of starting with a boggo hatch and ending up with plastic windows, Ti exhaust and carbon seats... and the fact driving home it just breathes over B road lumpiness in a surprisingly effortless way
I think unless money is no object you have to overlay some kind of smiles/£ to answer the question properly, and then a PITA factor...as nothing detracts from enjoyment quicker than a car that has mechanical issues or frustrations.
not sure where that leaves me!
trouble is i've had some fantastic cars that werent very enjoyable but were superb vehicles and the perfect "tool for the job" eg. an A3 3.2 dsg for London commuting... small, wieldy, discreet, fast, comfortable, cheap. enjoyable? not massively. Conversely for the same commute an early Touareg V10 I enjoyed purely because of its Q car-ness and the way the whole nose rose up accompanied by a deep guttaral roar whenever I got my foot down.
I really enjoyed the whole ownership of a lightly modified Defender. but it was horrible to drive. the enjoyment didnt come from bouncing along at low speed changing gear every 3 seconds thats for sure, but somehow it was still enjoyable because it was "proper". A Maser spyder wasn't enjoyable at all despite a lot of theoretically wonderful component parts because it just didnt have engineering integrity (wobbly, crap gearbox etc)
and finally I enjoyed my 996 gt3 but truth be told it was so mega capable I only really enjoyed it on track. partly fear of licence loss, partly fear of front splitter loss!
whereas I really enjoyed my first track outing in the R26R at the weekend esp when the other half showed me a photo of it getting up on 3 wheels in a tight corner. Slower than a GT3 but in a funny way more enjoyable because of the ridiculousness of starting with a boggo hatch and ending up with plastic windows, Ti exhaust and carbon seats... and the fact driving home it just breathes over B road lumpiness in a surprisingly effortless way
I think unless money is no object you have to overlay some kind of smiles/£ to answer the question properly, and then a PITA factor...as nothing detracts from enjoyment quicker than a car that has mechanical issues or frustrations.
not sure where that leaves me!
Had a Nissan Qashqui 1.5 diesel hire car on a recent European road trip and had all kinds of fun! Driving the Col de Turini, tyres screaming, traction control light flickering. Of course I could have had much more fun if the steering wasn't so awful and if I had a bit more grunt.
But on the right road and with good conditions, even the most boring of cars and be even slightly fun.
All that said... I'd still have preferred doing it in my Clio 182 :-)
But on the right road and with good conditions, even the most boring of cars and be even slightly fun.
All that said... I'd still have preferred doing it in my Clio 182 :-)
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