Driving enjoyment
Discussion
POLARBLUE said:
10 years of Lotus Elise 111R
I can sum up driving enjoyment in my title. I must be the best recommendation for driving enjoyment, had the car from new, done 27k, still adore it on every drive. I have always wanted a Ferrari but being a much poorer man this is what I have. I always wanted an Elise ever since they were announced but when the 111R came out I was smitten.
I have been in the motor trade in sales all my life and to this day there really is nothing to touch the enjoyment of driving an Elise111R.
It's so easy and is pure driving pleasure in terms of Handling and fun. I also have a Fiesta ST3 and that is superb but you can't beat the Elise for looks, decimating much more Powerful expensive cars on the road and sometimes supercars that the drivers simply do not know how to drive.
Great fun highly recommended, try one and you'll see what I have enjoyed for so long and why I won't be selling it even though I approach 60 shortly. Simply the best value for money fun car there is for sheer driving enjoyment!
27000 miles in 10 years. it took me less than 30 months to reach that in the roadster. I enjoy my drive every single day. its a car if you enjoy it drive it. don't keep it locked away in a garage. I can sum up driving enjoyment in my title. I must be the best recommendation for driving enjoyment, had the car from new, done 27k, still adore it on every drive. I have always wanted a Ferrari but being a much poorer man this is what I have. I always wanted an Elise ever since they were announced but when the 111R came out I was smitten.
I have been in the motor trade in sales all my life and to this day there really is nothing to touch the enjoyment of driving an Elise111R.
It's so easy and is pure driving pleasure in terms of Handling and fun. I also have a Fiesta ST3 and that is superb but you can't beat the Elise for looks, decimating much more Powerful expensive cars on the road and sometimes supercars that the drivers simply do not know how to drive.
Great fun highly recommended, try one and you'll see what I have enjoyed for so long and why I won't be selling it even though I approach 60 shortly. Simply the best value for money fun car there is for sheer driving enjoyment!
Driver enjoyment is pretty easy if you have the right car on the right UK road: http://stevecarter.com/up7.mov
Edited by GetCarter on Tuesday 4th August 17:30
ime lightweight leftfield choices is where the fun is at.
Had an 08 S2000 which was fun to chuck around and super pointy on meister zeta r shocks, and of course the 9k rpm screaming banshee giggles. But felt it needed more low/mid grunt for safe overtaking without frightening the banshees out of grannies at 9K, and the passive rw steering could be unnerving at times. Still it was great for top down action (convertible = more fun on dry days).
Then a new shape Elise sc which was really fun on twisties but not much fun in town other than kids pointing `daddy daddy look`, and the getting in and out if you are ~6ft was a bit embarrassing even if you do it properly, and the limited storage caused arguments with wtoh when packing for weekend trips.
Now a TVR tamora (lusted after tvrs for ever) which I think of as kind of like a big elise but much much more space, much more power, and fun anywhere (except jams coz the cabin heat builds up), just listening to it at tickover is fun. Picking it up from the garage tomorrow with a souped up 4.3L engine... proper power
Costs a ton of money to keep on the road, and I've had some proper bad luck with it, but I cant think of anything to replace it with without a tvr label that wont bore me to death.
If I had super car money it would probably be for a noble m600
Had fun with crap/slow rental cars as well. Rented a end of life Suzuki Jimny in Greece which was frankly comically fun, despite the steering being at 10 past while driving straight ahead, great for guilt free navigating unnavigatable beaten/rocky tracks on the way to secluded beaches Coming back to the Tamora after 3 weeks of driving that thing intensified the TVR experience x3.
Did the same with a Daihatsu Terios, fun little 4x4 for doing actual 4x4 in Fuerteventura, but that thing seemed actually competent and solid, so a bit less fun than a knackered Jimny with bent steering!
I would love to have a very contrasty collection, i.e caterham, tvr, wafty luxo barge, and a 4x4.
Had an 08 S2000 which was fun to chuck around and super pointy on meister zeta r shocks, and of course the 9k rpm screaming banshee giggles. But felt it needed more low/mid grunt for safe overtaking without frightening the banshees out of grannies at 9K, and the passive rw steering could be unnerving at times. Still it was great for top down action (convertible = more fun on dry days).
Then a new shape Elise sc which was really fun on twisties but not much fun in town other than kids pointing `daddy daddy look`, and the getting in and out if you are ~6ft was a bit embarrassing even if you do it properly, and the limited storage caused arguments with wtoh when packing for weekend trips.
Now a TVR tamora (lusted after tvrs for ever) which I think of as kind of like a big elise but much much more space, much more power, and fun anywhere (except jams coz the cabin heat builds up), just listening to it at tickover is fun. Picking it up from the garage tomorrow with a souped up 4.3L engine... proper power
Costs a ton of money to keep on the road, and I've had some proper bad luck with it, but I cant think of anything to replace it with without a tvr label that wont bore me to death.
If I had super car money it would probably be for a noble m600
Had fun with crap/slow rental cars as well. Rented a end of life Suzuki Jimny in Greece which was frankly comically fun, despite the steering being at 10 past while driving straight ahead, great for guilt free navigating unnavigatable beaten/rocky tracks on the way to secluded beaches
Coming back to the Tamora after 3 weeks of driving that thing intensified the TVR experience x3.Did the same with a Daihatsu Terios, fun little 4x4 for doing actual 4x4 in Fuerteventura, but that thing seemed actually competent and solid, so a bit less fun than a knackered Jimny with bent steering!
I would love to have a very contrasty collection, i.e caterham, tvr, wafty luxo barge, and a 4x4.
GetCarter said:
Driver enjoyment is pretty easy if you have the right car on the right UK road: http://stevecarter.com/up7.mov
Ah the applecross, I will never get tired of going up there and around. Esp when there are culinary treats waiting at the other end Edited by GetCarter on Tuesday 4th August 17:30
It is possible and would involve electronic measurement of brain activity in response to the various stimuli. The technology is being developed for commercial use and specifically for the computer gaming market, where emotional responses will be used to alter gameplay.
Of course, similar technology is sure to feature in cars one day - assuming we are still behind the wheel - to determine our mood and state of mind, especially prior to any accident. I seem to recall Honda or another manufacturer released a concept car with facial gesture recognition which warned the driver of a detected mood that was considered detrimental to safe driving. I digress!
Of course, similar technology is sure to feature in cars one day - assuming we are still behind the wheel - to determine our mood and state of mind, especially prior to any accident. I seem to recall Honda or another manufacturer released a concept car with facial gesture recognition which warned the driver of a detected mood that was considered detrimental to safe driving. I digress!
fascinating thread, but one that has no correct answer, I think anyway.
the key point is that any driving experience is absolutely subjective. we are all calibrated differently, and thus we all have different experiences when we drive any vehicle. any attempt to objectify what is essentially subjective is more or less, by definition, doomed to failure.
However, I do agree with one of the tenets of the OP, which is that modern car design/development/engineering is all too often slave to absolutist, objective numbers. some of this is regulatory (MPG, CO2, etc etc), but some is obviously marketing ('ring time, 0-60, Umax, etc) top trumps. some manufacturers do spend more time on the intangible of the driving experience (Mazda, Porsche, Jaguar, etc), than others (Audi, I'm looking at you), and the product reflects that.
Incidentally, nice to see Porsche recently tacitly admitting that their cars may have strayed too far from what we as enthusiasts want, and the GT4 seems to be the first product of that admission. eagerly awaiting to see what other vehicles are made to satisfy the simple needs of us dwindling few.
the key point is that any driving experience is absolutely subjective. we are all calibrated differently, and thus we all have different experiences when we drive any vehicle. any attempt to objectify what is essentially subjective is more or less, by definition, doomed to failure.
However, I do agree with one of the tenets of the OP, which is that modern car design/development/engineering is all too often slave to absolutist, objective numbers. some of this is regulatory (MPG, CO2, etc etc), but some is obviously marketing ('ring time, 0-60, Umax, etc) top trumps. some manufacturers do spend more time on the intangible of the driving experience (Mazda, Porsche, Jaguar, etc), than others (Audi, I'm looking at you), and the product reflects that.
Incidentally, nice to see Porsche recently tacitly admitting that their cars may have strayed too far from what we as enthusiasts want, and the GT4 seems to be the first product of that admission. eagerly awaiting to see what other vehicles are made to satisfy the simple needs of us dwindling few.
MikeT66 said:
Ratbike said:
pointedstarman said:
I've enjoyed every car I've ever driven though often for different reasons, the basic one being it's a car I've not driven before and is therefore interesting. I like cars that can take me on holiday without making me feel knackered and hustle along when I want it to.
The most interesting article I've ever read about driving cars was an interview in Motor Magazine (I think) with a Swedish rally driver who's name I forget who drove a bog standard 1.1 Fiesta (in the 80's) and when asked why he said he could drive it at its absolute limit without breaking too many laws. It would slide without effort and could be thrashed on public roads and barely make the legal limit. In a world where even the most basic of cars can do over 100 mph I think of this interview as making a lot of sense.
I remember something about that article, and I have to agree. Some of the most fun cars I have driven are, Renault 4, Citroen 2CV, Skoda Estelle 105 and a Trabant 601 (I own one). None of them have any power, especially the Trabant and the 2CV, but all are lightweight, have no driver aids and have decent chassis feel. You tend to feel everything in the Trabant, whereas the 4 and 2CV smooth out the worst of road surfaces whilst giving decent feedback, 2CV especially. And no outright performance to get you into real trouble.The most interesting article I've ever read about driving cars was an interview in Motor Magazine (I think) with a Swedish rally driver who's name I forget who drove a bog standard 1.1 Fiesta (in the 80's) and when asked why he said he could drive it at its absolute limit without breaking too many laws. It would slide without effort and could be thrashed on public roads and barely make the legal limit. In a world where even the most basic of cars can do over 100 mph I think of this interview as making a lot of sense.
Imagine a modern car with the same power to weight ratio giving the same sort of driving pleasure / involvement. Wouldn't be much fun, so perhaps there is something in the simplicity of a such cars that lends themselves to feature more of the driver as part of the package.
My mum had a 957cc Fiesta, so I can appreciate the rally driver's sentiments, it was just like the 1.1, but with even less go...
Just to add to the mix of how subjective reviews can be, I've heard from engineering colleagues who've worked for car makers that the press cars get massively tweaked. Things such as builders foam getting sprayed into panels to keep the road noise down etc. And think how easy it is to change the steering settings now for an Evo journalist who'll be far more interested in how it drives on a track than their target audience who'll get sold on the review anyway.
Then there's the fact different cars suit different conditions. A perfect B-road blaster will feel too twitchy and underpowered on sweeping A-roads..
So enjoyment's a very hard thing to measure indeed unfortunately
Then there's the fact different cars suit different conditions. A perfect B-road blaster will feel too twitchy and underpowered on sweeping A-roads..
So enjoyment's a very hard thing to measure indeed unfortunately
Its hard to judge driving enjoyment because we're all so different and all like different things.
Basically if you like a car you like a car, just cause someone else doesn't like it doesn't mean its a poor steer.
One mans Fiesta ST is another mans Lotus Elise if you will.
Manufacturers aren't really bothered about driving enjoyment in terms of feel and handling because it doesn't sell cars. Most people buy a car because it meets their needs, and 90% of car buyers don't have the need of the car being enjoyable to hoon around in, they want comfort and economy.
Doesn't give us petrolheads much hope, but a few manufacturers are still on our wavelength
Basically if you like a car you like a car, just cause someone else doesn't like it doesn't mean its a poor steer.
One mans Fiesta ST is another mans Lotus Elise if you will.
Manufacturers aren't really bothered about driving enjoyment in terms of feel and handling because it doesn't sell cars. Most people buy a car because it meets their needs, and 90% of car buyers don't have the need of the car being enjoyable to hoon around in, they want comfort and economy.
Doesn't give us petrolheads much hope, but a few manufacturers are still on our wavelength
Edited by SirSquidalot on Wednesday 5th August 16:51
Do you not think driving enjoyment is less about the car and more about the driving?
I have enjoyed driving every single car I have ever driven. The challenge is to drive well, whatever the circumstances and whatever the machine. To make as much progress as possible without exceeding the car's limits or impeding with any other driver's journey.
At the risk of coming over all Swiss Tony, I think cars are a bit like women in this respect: given the choice, you'll always take the one you haven't tried before.
I have enjoyed driving every single car I have ever driven. The challenge is to drive well, whatever the circumstances and whatever the machine. To make as much progress as possible without exceeding the car's limits or impeding with any other driver's journey.
At the risk of coming over all Swiss Tony, I think cars are a bit like women in this respect: given the choice, you'll always take the one you haven't tried before.
I have a 350i TVR, it is nearly 30 years old, has 205 60 15s on it, nearly 200bhp and weighs 1100kg.
It is the most fun I have had with my trousers on. The handling is ok but if you are hamfisted it will bite you on the arse, it has enough power to make overtakes possible and it sounds like a nascar.I love going down a hill on the overrun with it popping and banging away.
It is almost never driven with the roof on and i dont give a toss if people see it as a middle aged crisis, I have wanted one since i was 17 and I am living my dream
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiM6sCfVdTg
It is the most fun I have had with my trousers on. The handling is ok but if you are hamfisted it will bite you on the arse, it has enough power to make overtakes possible and it sounds like a nascar.I love going down a hill on the overrun with it popping and banging away.
It is almost never driven with the roof on and i dont give a toss if people see it as a middle aged crisis, I have wanted one since i was 17 and I am living my dream
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiM6sCfVdTg
r129sl said:
Do you not think driving enjoyment is less about the car and more about the driving?
This. THIS.For me personally driving enjoyment is about discovering great new roads. Of course it's helpful to have a nice car as well, but it's all about the roads first and foremost imo. Most people just focus on their car and just traverse the same routes day in and day out: for me that's like focusing on having a wonderful hi-fi system but only having two albums in your collection.
The roads make a difference, BUT, not any car will do. I recently drove 400 miles + to Skye and back across some of the best roads in the UK.
However, I was driving a Berlingo with four adults on board. We needed to make progress, got within 5 mph of its top speed and overtook at least 25 cars.
Unfortunately, pedal position makes heel and toe impossible. Also poor brake feel, vague gear change and marginal acceleration took away a huge amount of enjoyment that the roads should have provided.
A decent car and good roads are required.
However, I was driving a Berlingo with four adults on board. We needed to make progress, got within 5 mph of its top speed and overtook at least 25 cars.
Unfortunately, pedal position makes heel and toe impossible. Also poor brake feel, vague gear change and marginal acceleration took away a huge amount of enjoyment that the roads should have provided.
A decent car and good roads are required.
downsman said:
The roads make a difference, BUT, not any car will do. I recently drove 400 miles + to Skye and back across some of the best roads in the UK.
However, I was driving a Berlingo with four adults on board. We needed to make progress, got within 5 mph of its top speed and overtook at least 25 cars.
Unfortunately, pedal position makes heel and toe impossible. Also poor brake feel, vague gear change and marginal acceleration took away a huge amount of enjoyment that the roads should have provided.
A decent car and good roads are required.
Totally agree - a few years ago, I drove a Corsa hire car in Spain, up a beautiful mountain road to Ronda, where some manufacturers do car launches and because the car was so utterly sHowever, I was driving a Berlingo with four adults on board. We needed to make progress, got within 5 mph of its top speed and overtook at least 25 cars.
Unfortunately, pedal position makes heel and toe impossible. Also poor brake feel, vague gear change and marginal acceleration took away a huge amount of enjoyment that the roads should have provided.
A decent car and good roads are required.
te, I didn't enjoy it anywhere near as much as I should have. Now if I'd been in the Cayman or 911, I'd have absolutely loved every second of it!harry. said:
Had a Nissan Qashqui 1.5 diesel hire car on a recent European road trip and had all kinds of fun! Driving the Col de Turini, tyres screaming, traction control light flickering. Of course I could have had much more fun if the steering wasn't so awful and if I had a bit more grunt.
But on the right road and with good conditions, even the most boring of cars and be even slightly fun.
All that said... I'd still have preferred doing it in my Clio 182 :-)
I live up to the same mantra. Don't be gentle - it's a rental. The road itself doesn't matter that much.But on the right road and with good conditions, even the most boring of cars and be even slightly fun.
All that said... I'd still have preferred doing it in my Clio 182 :-)
Actually , the choice of vehicle isn't that important. It is the act of driving itself- so-ordination, smoothness, judgment and risk assessment by observation and anticipation that really stimulates and rewards. Good road helps- hence the Raticosa in a Panda 1.2 and the Route Napoleon in a 306DT were wonderful, as was the A68 at eleven tenths in a 2CV . I've enjoyed a blast across the fens in a Transit minibus far more than a drive through suburbia in a Ferrari . But combine all elements and nothing in my experience comes close to a Caterham in Wester Ross and Sutherland.
The mathematical element of evaluation has been tried- I seem to remember Road and Track were great believers in this.But it ends up like Which ? - the car with most blobs wins. And of course that can mean that a Ford RS Focus or a Golf R beats a 250 GTO or a 911 Carrera 2.7 and that fact alone rather undermines the process. You can't evaluate soul.
The mathematical element of evaluation has been tried- I seem to remember Road and Track were great believers in this.But it ends up like Which ? - the car with most blobs wins. And of course that can mean that a Ford RS Focus or a Golf R beats a 250 GTO or a 911 Carrera 2.7 and that fact alone rather undermines the process. You can't evaluate soul.
Here's a thought:
Modern cars have electronic control of some or all of :
Steering assistance & ratio
Brakes
Throttle mapping
Damping
Power and torque curves (VVT etc)
Exhaust / intake noise
As that techology filters down to cheaper cars, the manufacturers could make say a basic hatch that could be a granny shopping mobile with feather light steering and sluggish throttle, or a stiffly damped toy with heavier controls and sharper responses.
Nothing you can do about weight or outright power, of course.
Modern cars have electronic control of some or all of :
Steering assistance & ratio
Brakes
Throttle mapping
Damping
Power and torque curves (VVT etc)
Exhaust / intake noise
As that techology filters down to cheaper cars, the manufacturers could make say a basic hatch that could be a granny shopping mobile with feather light steering and sluggish throttle, or a stiffly damped toy with heavier controls and sharper responses.
Nothing you can do about weight or outright power, of course.
coppice said:
Actually , the choice of vehicle isn't that important. It is the act of driving itself- so-ordination, smoothness, judgment and risk assessment by observation and anticipation that really stimulates and rewards.
Tend to agree with this. The whole self improvement/training thing shouldn't be overlooked either. I prefer to spend my time/money learning to be a skilled driver in a an old banger rather than being an unskilled driver in an exotic car.coppice said:
Actually , the choice of vehicle isn't that important. It is the act of driving itself- so-ordination, smoothness, judgment and risk assessment by observation and anticipation that really stimulates and rewards. Good road helps- hence the Raticosa in a Panda 1.2 and the Route Napoleon in a 306DT were wonderful, as was the A68 at eleven tenths in a 2CV . I've enjoyed a blast across the fens in a Transit minibus far more than a drive through suburbia in a Ferrari . But combine all elements and nothing in my experience comes close to a Caterham in Wester Ross and Sutherland.
That's kind of what I was getting at. It's also about making the most of what you've got. So you find yourself at the foot of the A-397 Marbella - Ronda road in a Corsa. Make the most of it, rather than lament the lack of a supercar.
I think one of my favourite drives was the Applecross to Shielding road in my diesel 124 after the vacuum pump had failed. It would have been easy to wish I was in my 500 SEC in full working order—as I had been before—but coaxing this car along with unassisted brakes and an unmodulated transmission and then having to delve under the bonnet to switch it off turned out to be a pleasure in a weird way.
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