Is diesel in decline?
Discussion
I was just curious as to what effect the new legislation coming in to place in 2017 will have on the sale of diesel vehicles and how the manufacturer's will react to this. Up until recently, if I was buying a new mid-range family car, I would have almost certainly chosen the diesel version. Better mpg, lower CO2 emissions so lower RFL, better residual values and let's be honest, I know not many of us love the sound of a diesel at idle/low speed but the driveability and torque available from low rpms have traditionally (performance models aside) made turbodiesels much nicer to drive than your average gutless NA 1.4-2 litre petrol engine.
Now I'm really not so sure. Two experiences recently have made me doubt the worth of diesel and even my dad, who has driven diesels for over 20 years and likes them is thinking that he will probably buy a petrol car next time. One was a Golf S 1.2 TSI rental. I believe that it only had about 85bhp but felt like so much more than that (much better than the old 1.4 NA petrol in the Golf, which had similar power) and over 1000 miles, it averaged 45mpg. Not that it had much character but perfectly acceptable and petrol was considerably cheaper than diesel at the time, so I don't feel that not having a diesel dented my wallet any worse. In terms of ownership, the petrol should be more reliable too without the hassle of potentially expensive DMF and DPF failures.
The other was in my two year old 1.8 NA petrol Honda Civic. On a recent longer motorway journey, I averaged 49mpg and it costs peanuts to fill up! I guess part of the attraction of diesel is the consistency though, as I usually average more like 38-40mpg on a daily basis.
So, if you were going out to buy a mid-range family car today (Focus, Mondeo, 3-Series) etc, would you buy the petrol or the diesel version? I believe that VW do not offer a non-diesel option in the Passat. Will manufacturers that have invested heavily in diesel technology (VW/Audi, BMW) be hurt by the changes in legislation?
I imagine that diesel will still be the mainstay in larger cars (5-Series/7-Series) and SUVs though, where the petrol V6/V8 option will be considerably less efficient?
Now I'm really not so sure. Two experiences recently have made me doubt the worth of diesel and even my dad, who has driven diesels for over 20 years and likes them is thinking that he will probably buy a petrol car next time. One was a Golf S 1.2 TSI rental. I believe that it only had about 85bhp but felt like so much more than that (much better than the old 1.4 NA petrol in the Golf, which had similar power) and over 1000 miles, it averaged 45mpg. Not that it had much character but perfectly acceptable and petrol was considerably cheaper than diesel at the time, so I don't feel that not having a diesel dented my wallet any worse. In terms of ownership, the petrol should be more reliable too without the hassle of potentially expensive DMF and DPF failures.
The other was in my two year old 1.8 NA petrol Honda Civic. On a recent longer motorway journey, I averaged 49mpg and it costs peanuts to fill up! I guess part of the attraction of diesel is the consistency though, as I usually average more like 38-40mpg on a daily basis.
So, if you were going out to buy a mid-range family car today (Focus, Mondeo, 3-Series) etc, would you buy the petrol or the diesel version? I believe that VW do not offer a non-diesel option in the Passat. Will manufacturers that have invested heavily in diesel technology (VW/Audi, BMW) be hurt by the changes in legislation?
I imagine that diesel will still be the mainstay in larger cars (5-Series/7-Series) and SUVs though, where the petrol V6/V8 option will be considerably less efficient?
London is turning on them now. Parking permits in many boroughs are now £100 more for diesels. The ULEZ starts in 2020 (may get brought forward), this will cost drivers £12.50 per day to drive within most of the M25 and parts outside of it for pre Euro 6 diesel. It won't be long before other cities follow suit.
I drove a older diesel merc for the last 9 years and never thought I would go back to petrol for my everyday car but....
I have gone back to petrol.
When looking for me current car I kept coming across the nightmare stories of modern diesel engines having issues when used for shorter journeys etc etc.
A lot of the use my car gets is shorter around town stuff.
Using basic maths I worked out my current petrol car is costing me more to run than a diesel but if I had bought a diesel and it had gone wrong it could cost me more than I saved by running a diesel.
I know not all diesels go wrong doing shorter journeys but thought I would have a change and go back to petrol & hedge my bets.
I am not missing the diesel other than going to the fuel station once every 2 weeks instead of once every 3 weeks otherwise I am more than happy with the change.
I have gone back to petrol.
When looking for me current car I kept coming across the nightmare stories of modern diesel engines having issues when used for shorter journeys etc etc.
A lot of the use my car gets is shorter around town stuff.
Using basic maths I worked out my current petrol car is costing me more to run than a diesel but if I had bought a diesel and it had gone wrong it could cost me more than I saved by running a diesel.
I know not all diesels go wrong doing shorter journeys but thought I would have a change and go back to petrol & hedge my bets.
I am not missing the diesel other than going to the fuel station once every 2 weeks instead of once every 3 weeks otherwise I am more than happy with the change.
I certainly hope so!
Back in 2005 I got sucked into the diesel thing as I was expecting to do significant business mileage using my own car with a car allowance, having opted out of the company car option so I got paid mileage for business miles. At the time the mileage rates permitted by HMRC would have meant if I had bought petrol I would have been subsiding my business miles.
Actually I ended up only doing about 14,000 miles a year in total and had a decent salary so should have test driven a 325ti Compact before I bought a 320td that I had for 3 years - I know this for sure now as last year I bought a 325ti Compact as a daily and it is just so much better to drive in every way, although it is doing about 32 mpg to the 46 the diesel averaged.
In 2008 I traded the Compact for a 123d (2nd quickest 1 Series) but never drove the 130i so repeated my mistake.
I know this now as I also bought a Z4 Coupe last year with the same N52 3 litre engine and it is just wonderful, so no more disease for me thanks - I don't care if it costs a bit more in fuel even though my income is about half what it was. At least I can have some fun as well.
The other thing do remember noticing is that a few years ago I had a new-shape 118i as a courtesy car (so probably not driven too gently!) but the average on the trip computer was just over 36 mpg - my E87 123d only managed 47 over 80,000 miles so not a huge difference really and as you say no DPF issues.
Mind from what I have read they mostly seem to afflict cars that don't get properly warmed up or driven at any speed for long, so those people should have probably bought petrol in the first place! Cue the next mis-selling compo. chasers..
The new RFL rules certainly will screw cars with low CO2 like ED BMW's and stuff after 2017, but that may be a blessing for PHers - wait until 2018 and buy a used Mustang V8 (to avoid the 1st year charge) with RFL at £140 a year instead of rushing in now and paying £500 a year for as long as you have it. (If I have interpreted the new set-up correctly).
Looking forward to that!
Back in 2005 I got sucked into the diesel thing as I was expecting to do significant business mileage using my own car with a car allowance, having opted out of the company car option so I got paid mileage for business miles. At the time the mileage rates permitted by HMRC would have meant if I had bought petrol I would have been subsiding my business miles.
Actually I ended up only doing about 14,000 miles a year in total and had a decent salary so should have test driven a 325ti Compact before I bought a 320td that I had for 3 years - I know this for sure now as last year I bought a 325ti Compact as a daily and it is just so much better to drive in every way, although it is doing about 32 mpg to the 46 the diesel averaged.
In 2008 I traded the Compact for a 123d (2nd quickest 1 Series) but never drove the 130i so repeated my mistake.
I know this now as I also bought a Z4 Coupe last year with the same N52 3 litre engine and it is just wonderful, so no more disease for me thanks - I don't care if it costs a bit more in fuel even though my income is about half what it was. At least I can have some fun as well.The other thing do remember noticing is that a few years ago I had a new-shape 118i as a courtesy car (so probably not driven too gently!) but the average on the trip computer was just over 36 mpg - my E87 123d only managed 47 over 80,000 miles so not a huge difference really and as you say no DPF issues.
Mind from what I have read they mostly seem to afflict cars that don't get properly warmed up or driven at any speed for long, so those people should have probably bought petrol in the first place! Cue the next mis-selling compo. chasers..
The new RFL rules certainly will screw cars with low CO2 like ED BMW's and stuff after 2017, but that may be a blessing for PHers - wait until 2018 and buy a used Mustang V8 (to avoid the 1st year charge) with RFL at £140 a year instead of rushing in now and paying £500 a year for as long as you have it. (If I have interpreted the new set-up correctly).
Looking forward to that!
delta0 said:
London is turning on them now. Parking permits in many boroughs are now £100 more for diesels. The ULEZ starts in 2020 (may get brought forward), this will cost drivers £12.50 per day to drive within most of the M25 and parts outside of it for pre Euro 6 diesel. It won't be long before other cities follow suit.
Sorry, but you are wrong ref the "other cities follow suit ". London, in itself, lives in its own little (big) bubble, what happens there, will not happen in Birmingham, Manchester, Glasgow etc in the near future, (Glasgow has its own agenda IMO)It may come, but it is in the distant future, all IMO of course
Everyone bangs on about diesels being a ticking time bomb for bills but the new generation of turbo petrol will eventually suffer from failers of their own.
I much prefer a turbo petrol power delivery and it will be nice if your hands don't smell of it. Hopefully before too long it will be the reserve of commercials only. But I think it will only happen if BIK favours petrol.
I much prefer a turbo petrol power delivery and it will be nice if your hands don't smell of it. Hopefully before too long it will be the reserve of commercials only. But I think it will only happen if BIK favours petrol.
750turbo said:
Sorry, but you are wrong ref the "other cities follow suit ". London, in itself, lives in its own little (big) bubble, what happens there, will not happen in Birmingham, Manchester, Glasgow etc in the near future, (Glasgow has its own agenda IMO)
It may come, but it is in the distant future, all IMO of course
Haha. I lived in Manchester when they had a referendum about introducing a congestion charge. The citizens of Manchester told them what they could do in no uncertain terms, so that idea didn't get far!It may come, but it is in the distant future, all IMO of course
laters said:
I drove a older diesel merc for the last 9 years and never thought I would go back to petrol for my everyday car but....
I have gone back to petrol.
When looking for me current car I kept coming across the nightmare stories of modern diesel engines having issues when used for shorter journeys etc etc.
A lot of the use my car gets is shorter around town stuff.
Using basic maths I worked out my current petrol car is costing me more to run than a diesel but if I had bought a diesel and it had gone wrong it could cost me more than I saved by running a diesel.
I know not all diesels go wrong doing shorter journeys but thought I would have a change and go back to petrol & hedge my bets.
I am not missing the diesel other than going to the fuel station once every 2 weeks instead of once every 3 weeks otherwise I am more than happy with the change.
Those old C250TDs are awesome though. I briefly had a 1999 with over 200k on the clock and still going strong and wish that I had kept it. Yours was barely run in!I have gone back to petrol.
When looking for me current car I kept coming across the nightmare stories of modern diesel engines having issues when used for shorter journeys etc etc.
A lot of the use my car gets is shorter around town stuff.
Using basic maths I worked out my current petrol car is costing me more to run than a diesel but if I had bought a diesel and it had gone wrong it could cost me more than I saved by running a diesel.
I know not all diesels go wrong doing shorter journeys but thought I would have a change and go back to petrol & hedge my bets.
I am not missing the diesel other than going to the fuel station once every 2 weeks instead of once every 3 weeks otherwise I am more than happy with the change.
750turbo said:
Sorry, but you are wrong ref the "other cities follow suit ". London, in itself, lives in its own little (big) bubble, what happens there, will not happen in Birmingham, Manchester, Glasgow etc in the near future, (Glasgow has its own agenda IMO)
It may come, but it is in the distant future, all IMO of course
There are 5 cities in the UK with low emission zones. The ULEZ is an upgrade to the LEZ in London. Cities certainly won't be moving away from upgrading or introducing the ULEZ. The EU air quality standards apply to all the UK. The UK lost a Supreme Court ruling a couple of months ago which is why diesel has been turned on recently.It may come, but it is in the distant future, all IMO of course
white_goodman said:
Haha. I lived in Manchester when they had a referendum about introducing a congestion charge. The citizens of Manchester told them what they could do in no uncertain terms, so that idea didn't get far!
ULEZ is a vastly bigger area than the congestion zone. The difference this time is there will be no referendum as the UK lost the Supreme Court ruling on EU air quality standards. delta0 said:
white_goodman said:
Haha. I lived in Manchester when they had a referendum about introducing a congestion charge. The citizens of Manchester told them what they could do in no uncertain terms, so that idea didn't get far!
ULEZ is a vastly bigger area than the congestion zone. The difference this time is there will be no referendum as the UK lost the Supreme Court ruling on EU air quality standards. It's worth bearing in mind when comparing other cities with London that nowhere else has anything like the public transport infrastructure which the capital has, and this limits what you can realistically do without crippling the cities.
No point shirley other than economy from 2017 and with cost of diesel rising vs now fuel efficient petrol cars perhaps the mpg gap is closer than ever. O/T but my biggest gripe with the new system is that you know they won't increase the purchase price trigger for bigger VED payments and millions of people will get dragged in to the high VED bracket over time.
TX.
TX.
I had a choice of diesel or petrol for my last new car in 2015. Bought 2.4 petrol 4x4. Reasons: no turbo or dpf to go wrong, slight downsides are £300 a year VED and 28 mpg. I drive 10,000 miles a year.
The difference in fuel costs and Mpg are only around £150 pa savings for the diesel. My only moan is the VED.
The car mags constantly push diesel engines, and the extra torque is good but my last Golf ate its turbo and that was enough. £1200 bill.
The difference in fuel costs and Mpg are only around £150 pa savings for the diesel. My only moan is the VED.
The car mags constantly push diesel engines, and the extra torque is good but my last Golf ate its turbo and that was enough. £1200 bill.
Edited by Slushbox on Saturday 1st August 06:19
Edited by Slushbox on Saturday 1st August 07:13
I drive all sorts of cars every day and must admit I prefer diesels to drive, more torque makes them easier to drive. I've noticed a lot of teh petrol turbo engines drive just like diesels, lots of torque, fairly low rev limit.
Eco Boost fiestas, focus' are great and can do 40+mpg.
Why anyone would buy a n/a vauxhall I've no idea, gutless and stupidly thirsty!? Vauxhall diesels though are superb. Can't see diesel dissapearing quite yet.
Eco Boost fiestas, focus' are great and can do 40+mpg.
Why anyone would buy a n/a vauxhall I've no idea, gutless and stupidly thirsty!? Vauxhall diesels though are superb. Can't see diesel dissapearing quite yet.
Slushbox said:
I had a choice of diesel or petrol for my last new car in 2015. Bought 2.4 petrol 4x4. Reasons: no turbo or dpf to go wrong, slight downsides are £300 a year VED and 28 mpg. I drive 10,000 miles a year.
The difference in fuel costs and Mpg are only around £150 pa savings for the diesel. My only moan is the VED.
The car mags constantly push diesel engines, and the extra torque is good but my last Golf ate its turbo and that was enough. £1200 bill.
but dont all petrol engines now have turbo's too? makes the decision harderThe difference in fuel costs and Mpg are only around £150 pa savings for the diesel. My only moan is the VED.
The car mags constantly push diesel engines, and the extra torque is good but my last Golf ate its turbo and that was enough. £1200 bill.
Edited by Slushbox on Saturday 1st August 06:19
Edited by Slushbox on Saturday 1st August 07:13
delta0 said:
London is turning on them now. Parking permits in many boroughs are now £100 more for diesels. The ULEZ starts in 2020 (may get brought forward), this will cost drivers £12.50 per day to drive within most of the M25 and parts outside of it for pre Euro 6 diesel. It won't be long before other cities follow suit.
The ULEZ zone is solely going to operate within the existing congestion charge boundary only.https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emissio...
The existing LEZ which incorporates most of the inner M25 is not changing, currently cars are exempt from this charge.
Diesel is the only choice for me for most models on my company car scheme. This is why I do not have a company car.
Until the government raises the 160g CO2 limit for corporate tax, or manufacturers make petrols that can get under it (I am hoping that Jaguar's upcoming Ingenium petrols get below 160 so I can have one instead of a diesel) we will be stuck with the stinky horrible things for a while.
Until the government raises the 160g CO2 limit for corporate tax, or manufacturers make petrols that can get under it (I am hoping that Jaguar's upcoming Ingenium petrols get below 160 so I can have one instead of a diesel) we will be stuck with the stinky horrible things for a while.
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