Lotus Elise 111s or Honda S2000
Discussion
robsdesk said:
You should consider the VX220 Turbo as well - the badge means they're cheaper than the Elise but very much blood brothers.
I bought one a couple of years ago after always hankering after an Elise buy didn't want to spend the money required for the Toyota engined ones, not regretted it for a second - goes like stink, handles fantastically & you don't see mamy around.
Interestingly the price difference has narrowed. Plenty of VX220 Turbos are £15k which is more expensive than the typical 111S.I bought one a couple of years ago after always hankering after an Elise buy didn't want to spend the money required for the Toyota engined ones, not regretted it for a second - goes like stink, handles fantastically & you don't see mamy around.
It's strange that the VX220 is sometimes criticized for weight. Yes it's more than the k-series cars, but it's the same as the Toyota Elises/Exiges like for like.
james_gt3rs said:
It's strange that the VX220 is sometimes criticized for weight. Yes it's more than the k-series cars, but it's the same as the Toyota Elises/Exiges like for like.
I think Vauxhall were more optimistic about the weight than Lotus. From what I've seen, VX220 turbos tend to come in at about 940kg wet vs about 800kg for a 111S and 870kg for a 111R (all without air conditioning). 70kg makes a big difference in something as light as this, let alone 140kg. The very last supercharged Elises were just over 900kg so getting close but still a little lighter. Edited by kambites on Monday 3rd August 09:13
The engine is the S2000 is a peach but when I had a track day in one I was seriously disillusioned with the handling. The rear of the car felt very unstable and almost felt it was wanting to kill me if I got careless with it.
On the same day I drove an Exige and a VX220 and of the two much preferred the VX. I also prefer the styling if I'm honest.
In your situation I'd go for a VX for track use and probably a Honda for any day to day use, but it would be a close run thing.
On the same day I drove an Exige and a VX220 and of the two much preferred the VX. I also prefer the styling if I'm honest.
In your situation I'd go for a VX for track use and probably a Honda for any day to day use, but it would be a close run thing.
A few years ago a mate and I hired an Elise 111s and took it and his S2000 to the Brecons. I preferred the Elise by quite a way, I think he thought it edged the Honda despite owning the Honda.
For me, the Elise was a case of "when the hell is this thing going to lose grip?", whereas the a Honda offered up the answer to that relatively readily. The Honda's engine is amazing so long as you keep the revs high, but it would consistently get spanked by the Elise coming out of slow corners (whichever of us was driving; though neither of us tried dropping down to first to see if that helped it). And the Elise was quicker through the quick corners too!
The Elise feels lighter, appreciably so, and is happier under hard braking for it; the S2000 OTOH isn't a heavy car by any stretch, but in that company it felt heavy simply because it was heavier.
Sitting in the Elise feels like sitting in a race car, vs sitting in a sports car which is where the Honda is. The Elise feels quite uncompromised in terms of its user friendliness in that respect, but once you are in it feels like a tight custom made leather glove on you, whereas the Honda feels like a regular glove from a shop. I don't think the Elise is an attractive proposition for a passenger: it's a car for driving rather than being driven in, whereas the Honda is a lot more conventional.
For me, the Elise was a case of "when the hell is this thing going to lose grip?", whereas the a Honda offered up the answer to that relatively readily. The Honda's engine is amazing so long as you keep the revs high, but it would consistently get spanked by the Elise coming out of slow corners (whichever of us was driving; though neither of us tried dropping down to first to see if that helped it). And the Elise was quicker through the quick corners too!
The Elise feels lighter, appreciably so, and is happier under hard braking for it; the S2000 OTOH isn't a heavy car by any stretch, but in that company it felt heavy simply because it was heavier.
Sitting in the Elise feels like sitting in a race car, vs sitting in a sports car which is where the Honda is. The Elise feels quite uncompromised in terms of its user friendliness in that respect, but once you are in it feels like a tight custom made leather glove on you, whereas the Honda feels like a regular glove from a shop. I don't think the Elise is an attractive proposition for a passenger: it's a car for driving rather than being driven in, whereas the Honda is a lot more conventional.
Jasandjules said:
Depends on what you want to use it for really.
A swift blast down the country lanes, Elise every time.
However, as an alternative (and the best car for your money) - TVR Chimaera.
The risk of both of these cars second hand is that huge numbers have been bought by people who then didn't have the money to maintain a performance car as they should and there are lots of dogs out there and both can be tarted up quite easily so as to fool the casual or lazy buyer. A swift blast down the country lanes, Elise every time.
However, as an alternative (and the best car for your money) - TVR Chimaera.
They are both brilliant but anyone who doesn't do their homework on either or buys one while not having the means to continue to maintain is much better to stick with mainstream cars.
DonkeyApple said:
The risk of both of these cars second hand is that huge numbers have been bought by people who then didn't have the money to maintain a performance car as they should and there are lots of dogs out there and both can be tarted up quite easily so as to fool the casual or lazy buyer.
They are both brilliant but anyone who doesn't do their homework on either or buys one while not having the means to continue to maintain is much better to stick with mainstream cars.
The Elise, at least, is extremely simple and unstressed. Abuse doesn't really do it much harm (beyond the head gasket, obviously) and most of the mechanical parts are nicked from mainstream cars so are very cheap. They are both brilliant but anyone who doesn't do their homework on either or buys one while not having the means to continue to maintain is much better to stick with mainstream cars.
The s2000 is a great car - fast, makes a lovely noise, has a comfortable cabin, a reliable roof, a decent boot, and all the mod cons, which work.
The 111s is a bit slower (esp. at the top end), noisy, rough, has a less comfortable cabin, has a roof which you have to build and sometimes (often?) leaks, a tiny boot, and very few mod cons (including a virtually non-existent blower/heater which barely manages to demise the windscreen).
I own an s1 111s, and I think it's simply one of the best cars --one of the best driving experiences-- ever. Ever. I've tried to sell it several times --because there were other cars I wanted to own-- and never managed to - it's just too good.
The reason I listed the realities is that you have to want to live with the Elise experience. I think you have to go into it with your eyes open, knowing that on some days, when you're tired and cranky, it's raining, the roof is leaking, and you've just got a stream of water down your neck while contorting yourself into the cabin... you'll hate it.
But on the days when everything clicks... spring/summer/autumn, mornings/evenings, on a flowing road... it's absolutely magical, wonderful, perfect. It's a revelation.
The 111s is a bit slower (esp. at the top end), noisy, rough, has a less comfortable cabin, has a roof which you have to build and sometimes (often?) leaks, a tiny boot, and very few mod cons (including a virtually non-existent blower/heater which barely manages to demise the windscreen).
I own an s1 111s, and I think it's simply one of the best cars --one of the best driving experiences-- ever. Ever. I've tried to sell it several times --because there were other cars I wanted to own-- and never managed to - it's just too good.
The reason I listed the realities is that you have to want to live with the Elise experience. I think you have to go into it with your eyes open, knowing that on some days, when you're tired and cranky, it's raining, the roof is leaking, and you've just got a stream of water down your neck while contorting yourself into the cabin... you'll hate it.
But on the days when everything clicks... spring/summer/autumn, mornings/evenings, on a flowing road... it's absolutely magical, wonderful, perfect. It's a revelation.
mft said:
The 111s is a bit slower (esp. at the top end), noisy, rough, has a less comfortable cabin, has a roof which you have to build and sometimes (often?) leaks, a tiny boot, and very few mod cons (including a virtually non-existent blower/heater which barely manages to demise the windscreen).
Hmm, I disagree with almost all of that, at least for the S2. The Elise actually has a marginally better power to weight ratio than the S2000 - yes the Honda will be quicker at the top end but their 0-100 times are pretty much identical; the roof of mine has never leaked; the heater is noisy but works fine; the Elise has more comfortable seats and a better driving position than the S2000, at least for me; even the boot isn't that different (115 litres vs 142) although the S2000 obviously has much better access.
The biggest differences to the detriment of the Elise are the noise levels and the height of the sills. Apart from that I've really found my Elise no harder to live with than any other two seater convertible would be.
Edited by kambites on Monday 3rd August 10:25
james_gt3rs said:
Interestingly the price difference has narrowed. Plenty of VX220 Turbos are £15k which is more expensive than the typical 111S.
It's strange that the VX220 is sometimes criticized for weight. Yes it's more than the k-series cars, but it's the same as the Toyota Elises/Exiges like for like.
Yes, as someone with a tidy non modified VX220 Turbo in the garage the strengthening price is good to see! (not that I ever intend to sell it - had a brilliant drive from home in Alton down to the south coast & back via the Hindhead tunnel yesterday in the sun)It's strange that the VX220 is sometimes criticized for weight. Yes it's more than the k-series cars, but it's the same as the Toyota Elises/Exiges like for like.
Having owned a s1 Elise followed by a s2000 back to back I would recommend a Porsche boxster, as better than both for less money. The s1 Elsie is great fun and good on track, for weekend only fun car it would be good but long trips are a pain as is the roof day to day. The s2000 has a nice engine but the rest of the car is a let down I think, its hard to make use of the performance on the road (VTEC in 3rd goes to 90mph so where can you use 4th, 5th or 6th). The boxster doesn't look as nice but is a much better drive than the s2000 not far off an elise and with a great sounding engine very comfortable car too, took mine to Nurburgring ring not something I would have done with either the others.
I've owned a 2006 S2000 for 18 months and an Elise or a Boxster were both on my short list when I was looking. What swayed it for me was:
a) Value for money - I could buy a newer and lower mileage Honda than I could Lotus or Porsche. I'd missed the bottom of the depreciation curve for Elises!
b) Ease of maintenance - the traditional front engine rear drive is so much easier to work on than the mid engined cars (I do my own routine work).
c) Probable reliability - scare stories regarding Boxster engines were a worry. Also, the car lives outside and the Honda's reputation for dependability was a definite factor.
d) Practicality: I could live with any of the cars but the Lotus would be more of a challenge when it comes to the annual Le Mans trip or just dropping the roof on a sunny day for a short trip to walk the dog.
e) Looks: the Boxster does nothing at all for me!
In the event I've been happy with my choice, even though I readily acknowledge that the Lotus at least is a better driving machine. I've done a couple of track days and a Car Limits day and while I've spun the car on the Car Limits day (everyone does!), I've found it very stable on both road and track, possibly helped by fitting a set of Michelin PS3s. The icing on the cake is that, while not yet matching Elises, S2000 values do now seem to be climbing, which is nice!
a) Value for money - I could buy a newer and lower mileage Honda than I could Lotus or Porsche. I'd missed the bottom of the depreciation curve for Elises!
b) Ease of maintenance - the traditional front engine rear drive is so much easier to work on than the mid engined cars (I do my own routine work).
c) Probable reliability - scare stories regarding Boxster engines were a worry. Also, the car lives outside and the Honda's reputation for dependability was a definite factor.
d) Practicality: I could live with any of the cars but the Lotus would be more of a challenge when it comes to the annual Le Mans trip or just dropping the roof on a sunny day for a short trip to walk the dog.
e) Looks: the Boxster does nothing at all for me!
In the event I've been happy with my choice, even though I readily acknowledge that the Lotus at least is a better driving machine. I've done a couple of track days and a Car Limits day and while I've spun the car on the Car Limits day (everyone does!), I've found it very stable on both road and track, possibly helped by fitting a set of Michelin PS3s. The icing on the cake is that, while not yet matching Elises, S2000 values do now seem to be climbing, which is nice!
gdaybruce said:
b) Ease of maintenance - the traditional front engine rear drive is so much easier to work on than the mid engined cars (I do my own routine work).
This is an interesting one with the Elise. Some small jobs which are very easy on most cars are a bit of an arse because of poor access with the clam on. However, big mechanical jobs tend to be comparatively easy because you can simply spend an hour removing the entire back end of the car and you basically end up with the engine sitting on its mounts in the sub-frame so you can simply sit on a wheel and work on it:
Even with the clam on, routing servicing is easy; access to the cam-belt is remarkably good through the wheel arch.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 13th August 09:30
Boydie88 said:
Get a supercharged VX220. The extra weight (over an Elise S2 - which I'm not even sure is true, I think Elise owners just liek trying to justify the extra spend) is virtually negligible for road use and you will also have ridiculous straight line speed.
Problem for me is that heavily modified cars are practically uninsurable...Gaz. said:
Yeah I bet that's a walk in the park on your own.
Yeah it does need two people, albeit only for the 10 second part of the process which involves actually lifting the clam off the car. However if I'm doing major mechanical work anyway getting a neighbour to help me lift the clam off is hardly a major headache. Boydie88 said:
Get a supercharged VX220. The extra weight (over an Elise S2 - which I'm not even sure is true, I think Elise owners just liek trying to justify the extra spend) is virtually negligible for road use and you will also have ridiculous straight line speed.
The N/A VX220 is considerably lighter than the turbo so I'd imagine that even with the added weight of a supercharger it'd be pretty close to the later Toyota powered Elises. You're still talking about nearly 100kg heavier than an early S2 though, which is a lot in an 800kg car. If someone was after a modified 111 chassis car, a Honda powered S2 Elise (with or without a supercharger, depending on personal taste) is by far the best option out there, IMO. I guess a supercharged VX220 would be significantly cheaper though, so it's probably a good budget choice. Had my budget not been able to stretch to an S2 111S, I'd probably have bought a N/A VX220.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 13th August 10:11
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