Are the roads and traffic really that bad in the UK?
Discussion
I've been across the channel on a car ferry a few times and the over riding memory ( bear in mind it may be better now) is driving off the ferry in France and being unable to get out of the port area because of the dreadful signposting, so different to arriving back into the UK where straight away you see good clear signs and are guided onto a main road very quickly.
As I say it may be different now but then, for me, France was a joke.
As I say it may be different now but then, for me, France was a joke.
rich888 said:
Probably not the best title to use, perhaps it should have been 'Are roads and traffic really that bad in the UK considering how much motorists pay in taxes to drive on UK roads?'
Having driven from the UK into France several times I find the roads in France so much smoother with far less traffic on the roads, anyone who has travelled into France via the Eurotunnel onto the motorway will probably confirm that it's quite easy to do, and driving along smooth roads in France is so very relaxing, now compare that to any poor sod from France travelling north when he hits the congested M25.
Most councils in the UK are cutting back on road maintenance to the point that road lineage has almost worn out, yet they still expect the motorist to obey the line markings no matter how poor they are, though with the rise in the number of motorist fitting dash cameras this attitude may change. Now if certain overpaid jobsworths took a wage cut then perhaps more paint could be applied to the roads. As it stands this type of attitude towards improving roads is alien to the taxpayer funded jobsworths, whose only reason is currently to exist is to feather their own nest.
I always find it odd that in these times of austerity they always seem to find the money for speed camera vans...
Your last sentence is so wrong. And the rest of your post just comes across as an uneducated rant with a few daily mail buzzword bingo efforts thrown in. Having driven from the UK into France several times I find the roads in France so much smoother with far less traffic on the roads, anyone who has travelled into France via the Eurotunnel onto the motorway will probably confirm that it's quite easy to do, and driving along smooth roads in France is so very relaxing, now compare that to any poor sod from France travelling north when he hits the congested M25.
Most councils in the UK are cutting back on road maintenance to the point that road lineage has almost worn out, yet they still expect the motorist to obey the line markings no matter how poor they are, though with the rise in the number of motorist fitting dash cameras this attitude may change. Now if certain overpaid jobsworths took a wage cut then perhaps more paint could be applied to the roads. As it stands this type of attitude towards improving roads is alien to the taxpayer funded jobsworths, whose only reason is currently to exist is to feather their own nest.
I always find it odd that in these times of austerity they always seem to find the money for speed camera vans...
rich888 said:
Having driven from the UK into France several times I find the roads in France so much smoother with far less traffic on the roads, anyone who has travelled into France via the Eurotunnel onto the motorway will probably confirm that it's quite easy to do, and driving along smooth roads in France is so very relaxing, now compare that to any poor sod from France travelling north when he hits the congested M25.
Hardly a fair comparison considering the M25 circles London and there's no comparable city within 50 miles of the French end of Eurotunnel. However, once you do reach a sizeable city's motorway network, the congestion isn't so different from the M25; Antwerp and Brussels spring to mind. I can't compare French cities as most of my European motoring since 1970 has been to Germany but I imagine the traffic volumes are similar. Many French motorways are funded by tolls, something that isn't widespread in the UK so again, an unfair comparison.
Was having this discussion with a friend the other day. I'd done a Euro trip around the Alps (so Austria/Italy/Switzerland/France/Germany) and another trip around northern Scotland and I came to the conclusion that if I lived in those places, my current car is perfect (a base Cayman). However where I live (West Yorkshire), the roads are so bad and there's so much traffic on them that the Cayman is actually too fast and too hard to really enjoy in anything but short bursts on rare bits of decent road. Indeed most of the time, I'd be far better off in an MX-5 which has even lower limits and much more compliant ride. Hence that's my current plan. Seems mad to swap a Cayman for an MX-5. But not from where I'm living.
Edited by juansolo on Monday 3rd August 09:36
" Antwerp and Brussels spring to mind. "
I was trapped in a Friday afternoon jam on the Antwerp ring road last year, took four hours to get out of it. There were just as many lane-swoppers, gesticulators, light-flashers, tail-gaters and quarter-wits as you'll find on the M25 on a Friday afternoon.
I think traffic density in the South-East of England is pretty bad during 'peak hours' just as it is in Paris or Caen or any other conurbation. France is a larger country but it's just as easy to get stuck in traffic there, as it is in Madrid, on the Amsterdam/Utrecht motorway, or on the M25.
One true pain in the ass in the UK are the brainless traffic lights, especially in London, which hold up traffic in one direction when there is nothing on the other road.
I'm in London on many Sunday mornings before 8 AM and can spend a long time sitting at red lights, when there is nothing on any of the other roads at the junction, or indeed, any other vehicles in sight.
I was trapped in a Friday afternoon jam on the Antwerp ring road last year, took four hours to get out of it. There were just as many lane-swoppers, gesticulators, light-flashers, tail-gaters and quarter-wits as you'll find on the M25 on a Friday afternoon.
I think traffic density in the South-East of England is pretty bad during 'peak hours' just as it is in Paris or Caen or any other conurbation. France is a larger country but it's just as easy to get stuck in traffic there, as it is in Madrid, on the Amsterdam/Utrecht motorway, or on the M25.
One true pain in the ass in the UK are the brainless traffic lights, especially in London, which hold up traffic in one direction when there is nothing on the other road.
I'm in London on many Sunday mornings before 8 AM and can spend a long time sitting at red lights, when there is nothing on any of the other roads at the junction, or indeed, any other vehicles in sight.
Riley Blue said:
rich888 said:
Having driven from the UK into France several times I find the roads in France so much smoother with far less traffic on the roads, anyone who has travelled into France via the Eurotunnel onto the motorway will probably confirm that it's quite easy to do, and driving along smooth roads in France is so very relaxing, now compare that to any poor sod from France travelling north when he hits the congested M25.
Hardly a fair comparison considering the M25 circles London and there's no comparable city within 50 miles of the French end of Eurotunnel. However, once you do reach a sizeable city's motorway network, the congestion isn't so different from the M25; Antwerp and Brussels spring to mind. I can't compare French cities as most of my European motoring since 1970 has been to Germany but I imagine the traffic volumes are similar. Many French motorways are funded by tolls, something that isn't widespread in the UK so again, an unfair comparison.
PHlL said:
The problem in the UK is space.
This...... in a nutshell.PHlL said:
Motorway discipline is terrible.
This again. I still find it incredulous that the powers that be still think it's OK to let people use a road system (that we are so reliant on in many ways) that by and large drivers are NOT trained to use.......it's madness. And yet they still do nothing about it 
feef said:
I notice a difference when heading back up to Scotland, almost as soon as you're past Carlisle, the roads get quieter and the driving less frenetic as a result
I also notice it when getting off the Ferry or Eurotunnel after having been in France, it just seems so much busier in England
Whenever we go down to places like Poole or down the Kent side, its always noticable that there are many more cars about. They're just everywhere, even at times where at home, it'd be quiet or there'd be no one about at all. As you're driving down, the population density just increases and increases. When I drive back up to Middlesbrough its the reverse. Roads themselves aren't bad though, generally in good condition save for a few places where the surface is starting to break up or drainage is bad.I also notice it when getting off the Ferry or Eurotunnel after having been in France, it just seems so much busier in England
kambites said:
Paris certainly isn't the nicest of places to drive but it's not as bad as London, IMO. Admittedly I've never tried to drive there in the rush hour.
That's like saying that sticking pins in your eyes is fine, but you've only tried it with rubber ends to the pins.The issue is population density, we have twice the density of France so it's easier to find clear roads over there. But when France gets crowded the aggression, tailgating, lane discipline etc is far worse than here ime.
OpulentBob said:
rich888 said:
Probably not the best title to use, perhaps it should have been 'Are roads and traffic really that bad in the UK considering how much motorists pay in taxes to drive on UK roads?'
Having driven from the UK into France several times I find the roads in France so much smoother with far less traffic on the roads, anyone who has travelled into France via the Eurotunnel onto the motorway will probably confirm that it's quite easy to do, and driving along smooth roads in France is so very relaxing, now compare that to any poor sod from France travelling north when he hits the congested M25.
Most councils in the UK are cutting back on road maintenance to the point that road lineage has almost worn out, yet they still expect the motorist to obey the line markings no matter how poor they are, though with the rise in the number of motorist fitting dash cameras this attitude may change. Now if certain overpaid jobsworths took a wage cut then perhaps more paint could be applied to the roads. As it stands this type of attitude towards improving roads is alien to the taxpayer funded jobsworths, whose only reason is currently to exist is to feather their own nest.
I always find it odd that in these times of austerity they always seem to find the money for speed camera vans...
Your last sentence is so wrong. And the rest of your post just comes across as an uneducated rant with a few daily mail buzzword bingo efforts thrown in. Having driven from the UK into France several times I find the roads in France so much smoother with far less traffic on the roads, anyone who has travelled into France via the Eurotunnel onto the motorway will probably confirm that it's quite easy to do, and driving along smooth roads in France is so very relaxing, now compare that to any poor sod from France travelling north when he hits the congested M25.
Most councils in the UK are cutting back on road maintenance to the point that road lineage has almost worn out, yet they still expect the motorist to obey the line markings no matter how poor they are, though with the rise in the number of motorist fitting dash cameras this attitude may change. Now if certain overpaid jobsworths took a wage cut then perhaps more paint could be applied to the roads. As it stands this type of attitude towards improving roads is alien to the taxpayer funded jobsworths, whose only reason is currently to exist is to feather their own nest.
I always find it odd that in these times of austerity they always seem to find the money for speed camera vans...
Driving on the A19, arrow straight, very light traffic, newly surface, excellent road. The police, who moan about cuts, still had the where with all to plonk a camera van on said piece of road....in the late evening. If they have money to waste on a van, 2 men and a load of cameras to catch people driving perfectly safely in a straight line, then they have no right to moan about "front-line" cut backs. There was absolutely no rhyme or reason to have a camera van there. Unless of course it was to catch people cruising safely at 85 because the road is so good and so empty.
Some other poster said how the UK is one of the few countries to have very few in the way of motorway patrol cars because we police via automation. I would posit that speed cameras are not really policing the roads at all. Catching people going a little fast on the M1 maybe, but not the guy looking down at his phone, the guy with no insurance, MOT or tax, the MLM's the guy with a car thats blatantly not road worthy, the guy weaving in and out like a loon, the guy tailgating everyone... list goes on. They just pluck the low hanging fruit, the easy to measure metric of speed. Its a borderline retarded attitude.
kambites said:
It's not really a north south thing, just a population density one. Cornwall is much quieter than much of the north of England (as long as you avoid the summer holidays). Its fun down there though.
"However where I live (West Yorkshire), the roads are so bad and there's so much traffic on them that the Cayman is actually too fast"
Same here. I live in a hilly countryside area where access is via B roads only. In winter they clog up with large tree debris like entire branches which have died and are then knocked off by passing lorries. Leaves block gullies and cause floods, so much so that the place was cut off in February last year by flooded back roads.
The local bus company buys knackered old double-deckers for the back lane routes, and the drivers believe they have absolute priority over everything else. So frequently, car drivers are forced to reverse into hedgerows and potholed road edges to escape.
So, no Cayman for me, but a pleasingly tank-like 4x4. It was new last year and already has a dinked bonnet when a Halford's juggernaut knocked a dead branch out of a tree, which fell on the car.
Forget 'nice'. I go with 'practical' out in the sticks. Then when I drive into London I get hate looks from the anti- 4x4 brigade.
What a country! I'll take France, any day.
Same here. I live in a hilly countryside area where access is via B roads only. In winter they clog up with large tree debris like entire branches which have died and are then knocked off by passing lorries. Leaves block gullies and cause floods, so much so that the place was cut off in February last year by flooded back roads.
The local bus company buys knackered old double-deckers for the back lane routes, and the drivers believe they have absolute priority over everything else. So frequently, car drivers are forced to reverse into hedgerows and potholed road edges to escape.
So, no Cayman for me, but a pleasingly tank-like 4x4. It was new last year and already has a dinked bonnet when a Halford's juggernaut knocked a dead branch out of a tree, which fell on the car.
Forget 'nice'. I go with 'practical' out in the sticks. Then when I drive into London I get hate looks from the anti- 4x4 brigade.
What a country! I'll take France, any day.
OpulentBob said:
George7 said:
My daily commute is mostly using the A12 between Witham and Colchester which I see as a fairly poor condition road, but compared to the road connecting Warsaw to Bialystok, it's comparatively excellent, although to be fair to the route from Warsaw to Bialystok, there's currently a hell of a lot of roadworks going on, so it's going to be infinitely improved once those are finished.
[/footnote]
Going in to specifics about your point about the A12, the surface isn't great (in terms of noise) but the road is predominantly concrete, and is structurally very sound. There's scabby surfacing around the top of Kelvedon, but that's just a skin on the top that (IMO) should be either replaced or removed altogether. To replace with a fully flexible (bituminous) construction would be removing a road which is (maybe) 95% servicable. And then there's the amount of traffic. The 3 lane section Marks Tey - Stanway carries 95,000 vehicles per day (or did, when I last calculated them about ten or so years ago). Combine that with the lack of a decent diversion route should there be any issues, and it will never cope with the demand put on it. [/footnote]
I won't even start to go in to the issues that would surround widening it!
But yeah, it certainly isn't the most enjoyable journey, I grant you.
The road infrastructure in the UK isn't the problem, it's the people who use and manage it that is.
Edited by SuperchargedVR6 on Monday 3rd August 10:10
Otispunkmeyer said:
OpulentBob said:
rich888 said:
Probably not the best title to use, perhaps it should have been 'Are roads and traffic really that bad in the UK considering how much motorists pay in taxes to drive on UK roads?'
Having driven from the UK into France several times I find the roads in France so much smoother with far less traffic on the roads, anyone who has travelled into France via the Eurotunnel onto the motorway will probably confirm that it's quite easy to do, and driving along smooth roads in France is so very relaxing, now compare that to any poor sod from France travelling north when he hits the congested M25.
Most councils in the UK are cutting back on road maintenance to the point that road lineage has almost worn out, yet they still expect the motorist to obey the line markings no matter how poor they are, though with the rise in the number of motorist fitting dash cameras this attitude may change. Now if certain overpaid jobsworths took a wage cut then perhaps more paint could be applied to the roads. As it stands this type of attitude towards improving roads is alien to the taxpayer funded jobsworths, whose only reason is currently to exist is to feather their own nest.
I always find it odd that in these times of austerity they always seem to find the money for speed camera vans...
Your last sentence is so wrong. And the rest of your post just comes across as an uneducated rant with a few daily mail buzzword bingo efforts thrown in. Having driven from the UK into France several times I find the roads in France so much smoother with far less traffic on the roads, anyone who has travelled into France via the Eurotunnel onto the motorway will probably confirm that it's quite easy to do, and driving along smooth roads in France is so very relaxing, now compare that to any poor sod from France travelling north when he hits the congested M25.
Most councils in the UK are cutting back on road maintenance to the point that road lineage has almost worn out, yet they still expect the motorist to obey the line markings no matter how poor they are, though with the rise in the number of motorist fitting dash cameras this attitude may change. Now if certain overpaid jobsworths took a wage cut then perhaps more paint could be applied to the roads. As it stands this type of attitude towards improving roads is alien to the taxpayer funded jobsworths, whose only reason is currently to exist is to feather their own nest.
I always find it odd that in these times of austerity they always seem to find the money for speed camera vans...
Driving on the A19, arrow straight, very light traffic, newly surface, excellent road. The police, who moan about cuts, still had the where with all to plonk a camera van on said piece of road....in the late evening. If they have money to waste on a van, 2 men and a load of cameras to catch people driving perfectly safely in a straight line, then they have no right to moan about "front-line" cut backs. There was absolutely no rhyme or reason to have a camera van there. Unless of course it was to catch people cruising safely at 85 because the road is so good and so empty.
Some other poster said how the UK is one of the few countries to have very few in the way of motorway patrol cars because we police via automation. I would posit that speed cameras are not really policing the roads at all. Catching people going a little fast on the M1 maybe, but not the guy looking down at his phone, the guy with no insurance, MOT or tax, the MLM's the guy with a car thats blatantly not road worthy, the guy weaving in and out like a loon, the guy tailgating everyone... list goes on. They just pluck the low hanging fruit, the easy to measure metric of speed. Its a borderline retarded attitude.
In a nutshell, yes! British roads are in appalling condition, poorly maintained, and under invested in.
Their deterioration, however, is partly due to our winter climate.
During our winter, it's not unusual to have periods spanning many weeks where the air temperature will drop below freezing at night, then rise above freezing during the day. Add into that the effect of the sun during the day on road surfaces, and it's no surprise that frost damage creates a right mess of our roads during the winter ..... constantly expanding and contracting of water in the fabric of the road surface, as it freezes and thaws.
Britain also has a history of running services and drains under roads, rather than pavements or verges. This leads to our patchwork roads when repairs are required.
Repairs to road surfaces are by small sections with a bucket of tarmac lobbed in for pot holes, and resurfacing is typically the smear of tar and sprinkling of chippings added afterwards technique. Ripples, undulations, water accumulating troughs, and adverse cambers remain, or become exaggerated.
One positive??????
Unlike many parts of Europe (hand up Belgium), we've done well to resist concrete road surfaces. Hardwearing and smooth, however noisy and poor for drainage.
Their deterioration, however, is partly due to our winter climate.
During our winter, it's not unusual to have periods spanning many weeks where the air temperature will drop below freezing at night, then rise above freezing during the day. Add into that the effect of the sun during the day on road surfaces, and it's no surprise that frost damage creates a right mess of our roads during the winter ..... constantly expanding and contracting of water in the fabric of the road surface, as it freezes and thaws.
Britain also has a history of running services and drains under roads, rather than pavements or verges. This leads to our patchwork roads when repairs are required.
Repairs to road surfaces are by small sections with a bucket of tarmac lobbed in for pot holes, and resurfacing is typically the smear of tar and sprinkling of chippings added afterwards technique. Ripples, undulations, water accumulating troughs, and adverse cambers remain, or become exaggerated.
One positive??????
Unlike many parts of Europe (hand up Belgium), we've done well to resist concrete road surfaces. Hardwearing and smooth, however noisy and poor for drainage.
Those in charge of managing the motorway network seem to do a very bad job of it.
Case in point, M25 clockwise from A1 to A10 this morning the gantry signs said:
RED X MEANS LANE CLOSED
X 60 60 60
INCIDENT LANE CLOSED
LANE CLOSED AHEAD
The effect of this was moving 4 lanes of traffic into 3 (except for those who ignored the signs) thus slowing and even stopping the other three lanes as people wondered what was going on.
Is the lane closed?
Is the exist closed?
Shall I get into lane 1 for the exit or will I hit a queue / accident?
No accident, no lane closure, nothing except increased congestion; reduced average speeds across the lanes; lots of late lane changes and distracted drivers as people tried to get into the correct lane.
I know this is just one example but even if there had been an accident or incident as the signs said, surely by the time all the debris and what ever have been removed the signs can be switched off?
Case in point, M25 clockwise from A1 to A10 this morning the gantry signs said:
RED X MEANS LANE CLOSED
X 60 60 60
INCIDENT LANE CLOSED
LANE CLOSED AHEAD
The effect of this was moving 4 lanes of traffic into 3 (except for those who ignored the signs) thus slowing and even stopping the other three lanes as people wondered what was going on.
Is the lane closed?
Is the exist closed?
Shall I get into lane 1 for the exit or will I hit a queue / accident?
No accident, no lane closure, nothing except increased congestion; reduced average speeds across the lanes; lots of late lane changes and distracted drivers as people tried to get into the correct lane.
I know this is just one example but even if there had been an accident or incident as the signs said, surely by the time all the debris and what ever have been removed the signs can be switched off?
MG CHRIS said:
s m said:
feef said:
I notice a difference when heading back up to Scotland, almost as soon as you're past Carlisle, the roads get quieter and the driving less frenetic as a result
I also notice it when getting off the Ferry or Eurotunnel after having been in France, it just seems so much busier in England
Agreed I also notice it when getting off the Ferry or Eurotunnel after having been in France, it just seems so much busier in England
Also on the mountain roads generally the slower cars are very easy to get past and don't speed up.
My 10 mile commute to work takes 15 mins during the school holiday most of that being 30-50mph road even when the holidays are over normally takes about 18mins. When you here of similar commutes in London taking hrs does make you think how lucky I am.
Yes some drivers are pretty poor and some roads are similar too but overall theres not many countries I rather drive through.
Even the B-roads in the South East seem mega busy by comparison
s m said:
That is true Chris - I'm lucky to live pretty close to the roads you mention so a fastish car is still enjoyable for me.
Even the B-roads in the South East seem mega busy by comparison
The South East is a nightmare. There's basically never a time I can go out and not hit some traffic somewhere that ruins my enjoyable drive.Even the B-roads in the South East seem mega busy by comparison
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