Are the roads and traffic really that bad in the UK?
Discussion
Thankyou4calling said:
In the UK the road signs are superb.
No they're not. they're good. On the motorways, yes they are very good. But on the country roads, they can leave a lot to be desired. As an example I take my recent journey to Bristol from the North. I took the M69 to Coventry and planned to carry straight on past Cirencester. Around Coventry, there are signs for Cirencester - all good. However, a few miles out, come to a roundabout or a cross roads, and only the nearby villages are signposted. As it's a change of road too I have to know which road I want and follow that. Then about 200 yards later there is a sign to tell me how far Cirencester is.
I've driven in France a lot and I much prefer that signage.
The motorways in the UK are very nice, good wide lanes, good shoulders, well maintained surfaces,frequent services and generally well moving traffic (outside of peak hours in Bristol, Birmingham, London etc) The majority of the A roads and B roads are poor in comparison to similar roads where I am from in the US (Southern California) There is little to no shoulder with hedges right up to the edges in some areas, potholes/drains/grates that are very deep, usually right where your offside tires go and then compound that with the 30mph brigade makes driving those roads a challenge.
The biggest problems are commuting traffic and buses.
Since people tend to work more in a different town than they live, from house prices or availability of jobs or just 'like living here, thanks' then they need to get to that place of work. Add in a few more people who thought the same thing with business parks all housing a load of companies then you've got a pinchpoint and a time point where everyone wants to get into the same piece of space at the same time.
Buses are a bugbear of mine, they're always slowing up traffic more than needed, they tend to hunt in pairs and generally get in the way of everything. I dont blame the drivers, often it's the routes they're given
Since people tend to work more in a different town than they live, from house prices or availability of jobs or just 'like living here, thanks' then they need to get to that place of work. Add in a few more people who thought the same thing with business parks all housing a load of companies then you've got a pinchpoint and a time point where everyone wants to get into the same piece of space at the same time.
Buses are a bugbear of mine, they're always slowing up traffic more than needed, they tend to hunt in pairs and generally get in the way of everything. I dont blame the drivers, often it's the routes they're given
Alex@POD said:
No they're not. they're good. On the motorways, yes they are very good. But on the country roads, they can leave a lot to be desired.
As an example I take my recent journey to Bristol from the North. I took the M69 to Coventry and planned to carry straight on past Cirencester. Around Coventry, there are signs for Cirencester - all good. However, a few miles out, come to a roundabout or a cross roads, and only the nearby villages are signposted. As it's a change of road too I have to know which road I want and follow that. Then about 200 yards later there is a sign to tell me how far Cirencester is.
I've driven in France a lot and I much prefer that signage.
Agreed - although it's less of an issue with satnav. I have lost count of the number of times I've been in strange town/city, following signs to my destination and then - bang a major junction with no signage.As an example I take my recent journey to Bristol from the North. I took the M69 to Coventry and planned to carry straight on past Cirencester. Around Coventry, there are signs for Cirencester - all good. However, a few miles out, come to a roundabout or a cross roads, and only the nearby villages are signposted. As it's a change of road too I have to know which road I want and follow that. Then about 200 yards later there is a sign to tell me how far Cirencester is.
I've driven in France a lot and I much prefer that signage.
OpulentBob said:
rich888 said:
Probably not the best title to use, perhaps it should have been 'Are roads and traffic really that bad in the UK considering how much motorists pay in taxes to drive on UK roads?'
Having driven from the UK into France several times I find the roads in France so much smoother with far less traffic on the roads, anyone who has travelled into France via the Eurotunnel onto the motorway will probably confirm that it's quite easy to do, and driving along smooth roads in France is so very relaxing, now compare that to any poor sod from France travelling north when he hits the congested M25.
Most councils in the UK are cutting back on road maintenance to the point that road lineage has almost worn out, yet they still expect the motorist to obey the line markings no matter how poor they are, though with the rise in the number of motorist fitting dash cameras this attitude may change. Now if certain overpaid jobsworths took a wage cut then perhaps more paint could be applied to the roads. As it stands this type of attitude towards improving roads is alien to the taxpayer funded jobsworths, whose only reason is currently to exist is to feather their own nest.
I always find it odd that in these times of austerity they always seem to find the money for speed camera vans...
Your last sentence is so wrong. And the rest of your post just comes across as an uneducated rant with a few daily mail buzzword bingo efforts thrown in. Having driven from the UK into France several times I find the roads in France so much smoother with far less traffic on the roads, anyone who has travelled into France via the Eurotunnel onto the motorway will probably confirm that it's quite easy to do, and driving along smooth roads in France is so very relaxing, now compare that to any poor sod from France travelling north when he hits the congested M25.
Most councils in the UK are cutting back on road maintenance to the point that road lineage has almost worn out, yet they still expect the motorist to obey the line markings no matter how poor they are, though with the rise in the number of motorist fitting dash cameras this attitude may change. Now if certain overpaid jobsworths took a wage cut then perhaps more paint could be applied to the roads. As it stands this type of attitude towards improving roads is alien to the taxpayer funded jobsworths, whose only reason is currently to exist is to feather their own nest.
I always find it odd that in these times of austerity they always seem to find the money for speed camera vans...
- I take it you don't drive very much 
Let's pick Sheffield for instance, a drive up the M1 to Meadowhall, come off the slip road in the right lane and immediately into the wrong lane, it's not that the junction isn't wide enough, it's just that the lane markings are incorrect, and travelling south bound back onto the M1 from Meadowhall using the roundabout under the M1 the lane markings are somewhat bizarre as you go round it, it's OK if you are from the area but to anyone travelling in from elsewhere they really do have to be paying attention, and there really is no need for it.
What about travelling along the A38 to the M1 junction 28, you come up to a large roundabout. If you want to remain on the A38 there are three lanes marked on the roundabout to choose from, and as you drive around the roundabout to the the final set of lane markings you finally arrive at a set of traffic lights with still show three lanes, yet when you pull away intent on driving along the A38 there are only two lanes onto the dual-carriageway, I bet that is fun at rush-hour for anyone not familiar with the area! Once again, there is no reason for this stupidity!
How about driving out of Leicester on the A46, now this used to have a wonderfully simple dual-carriageway out of town, not anymore, there is now a great big monster set of traffic lights and woe betide anyone who's not paying attention because they will be shunted off left thanks to the road planners and their bizarre road markings, if you have a fast car you can boot it off the line, but why did they do this when it all worked perfectly well beforehand.
Or perhaps the Hucknall ring road where it meets the main road into Bulwell, anyone turning right on the roundabout (choice is left to Hucknall or right to Bulwell) is forced left a little further on because the two lanes merge into one just opposite the tram stop for no good reason, then the road opens back out into two lanes again, why do this? It's not so bad when the roads aren't busy but at rush-hour the whole system locks up solid, why not just continue with two lanes to the next roundabout where left goes to Nottingham whilst straight-ahead goes towards Bulwell.
How about Mansfield outer ring-road travelling into Mansfield on Chesterfield Road which just can't make its mind up whether it is two lanes or one so alternates wildly before finally forcing drivers right into Tesco or right past the Civic Centre, should you manage to survive this onslaught and carry straight on the road planners must have thought long and hard how to confuse the poor motorist, so you make it through three or four sets of lights then the road widens from two lanes to five lanes and god forbid if you pick the wrong one because you could end up in Worksop on the A60. Google Street View https://goo.gl/maps/olK9A
Nottingham deserves it's very own medal for traffic planning stupidity what with the bus lanes clogging up the main A60 into town, but even these lanes have variable usage times and days so motorists are never quite sure whether or not to use them, and the speed limits wander up and down just to confuse the issue with very few repeater signs - and now some roads are 20mph! With an extra sneaky trick for motorists turning left at the top of the hill on Mansfield Road past the cemetery onto Mapperley Road, who happen to move over a little too soon into the bus lane before turning left - a nice little camera has been installed to send you a fine.
What about parking in Victoria Centre which used to be quite straight-forward in that you used to bear off left onto York Street and straight into the car park. Not any more, you now bear left past the bus station in the right-hand lane (not the left which is for through traffic!), but for reasons only known to the road planners you then have to turn left across this lane and then navigate a heavy duty concrete left right chicane. What is the point of this especially as it is very tight turn for cars as can be seen by all the gouge marks on the sides, and isn't helped by the fact that some motorists have been know to go into the left-hand lane and jump the queue. It's just pure stupidity on a grand scale and simply isn't necessary! Google Street View https://goo.gl/maps/2veK7
And before I forget, how about where the main A60 and A614 roads into Nottingham meet at the Redhill roundabout, with two lanes going left onto the A60 then a great big keep-left bollard as the road merges into one lane, it wasn't the best layout before but now this must cause utter chaos at rush-hour.
And one last taster to finish off with, if you drive into Nottingham City centre along Mapperley Top on Plains Road, some bright-spark in road planning has changed the lane markings at the traffic lights between the very busy junction between Woodborough Road and left onto Porchester Road, so instead of the left lane being left only onto Porchester Road which used to work fine, the left lane can now also be used for going straight-ahead, except that the road narrows on the other side of the lights with insufficient room for two cars. If you don't believe me then take a look at Google Street View https://goo.gl/maps/iUWVZ - and note that the view is shown from the opposite direction to show just how narrow the lanes are, Google Street View is shown before the lane markings were changed.
I take it that risk assessments aren't compulsory any longer because it is just this type of illogical thinking that is going to cause road accidents!
You appear to be confused. The purpose of road planning is NOT to allow traffic to flow freely and safely.
The purpose of road planning is to make using the roads so confusing and journey times so long, that everyone gives up on private cars and uses the buses.
Meanwhile, in the real world...
The purpose of road planning is to make using the roads so confusing and journey times so long, that everyone gives up on private cars and uses the buses.
Meanwhile, in the real world...
speedyguy said:
Thankyou4calling said:
Yes.
A couple of examples.
The M4 is 184 miles, there are 11 service stations. That's one every 17 miles.
The M6 is 217 miles there are 18 service stations.. That's one every 12 miles.
The M5 is 154 miles, there are 12 service stations. That's one every 13 miles.
These are the first I looked at, plenty of other examples.
I know you'll find places where they are further apart but I'm looking at the UK as a whole.
For England (as Scottieland and Wales are devolved)A couple of examples.
The M4 is 184 miles, there are 11 service stations. That's one every 17 miles.
The M6 is 217 miles there are 18 service stations.. That's one every 12 miles.
The M5 is 154 miles, there are 12 service stations. That's one every 13 miles.
These are the first I looked at, plenty of other examples.
I know you'll find places where they are further apart but I'm looking at the UK as a whole.
Never more than 28 miles as a guide with infills between, all spacing restrictions now removed, expect to see more.
See page 14 para B6 for guide
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/strateg...
http://www.motorwayservices.info/map
Or for geekiness http://motorwayservicesonline.co.uk/Main_Page
Lymm and Knutsford are very close together, then Stafford, Keele and Sandbach all close near Stoke, so that leaves big gaps
Lancaster to Charnock Richard for example, or Hilton Park to Corley - very busy stretches of over 30 miles
aside from that, I drove from Lancashire to Düsseldorf yesterday
Southern half of the M25 was a joke, people picking one of the 4 lanes seemingly at random - it was a Sunday of course so you get the 'amateurs' out in force
Belgium was of course terrible
then this morning in Germany someone pulled out on me with about a seconds gap going 30mph slower
there's good and bad everywhere
Edited by Hugo a Gogo on Monday 3rd August 11:45
gareth_r said:
You appear to be confused. The purpose of road planning is NOT to allow traffic to flow freely and safely.
The purpose of road planning is to make using the roads so confusing and journey times so long, that everyone gives up on private cars and uses the buses.
Meanwhile, in the real world...
Haha, brilliant!!!The purpose of road planning is to make using the roads so confusing and journey times so long, that everyone gives up on private cars and uses the buses.
Meanwhile, in the real world...
Ive just come back from a road trip in Europe (have done several before also) and found the driving quite pleasant with the roads being well maintained and traffic not so bad.
However, we did use mainly toll roads in France and all of the minor roads we used were pretty quiet and not close to many major cities, which I think rose tinted our view.
Road works with nothing happenening....that happens in Germany too ;-)
However, we did use mainly toll roads in France and all of the minor roads we used were pretty quiet and not close to many major cities, which I think rose tinted our view.
Road works with nothing happenening....that happens in Germany too ;-)
Thankyou4calling said:
Putting aside our immediate reaction if we are held up or hit a pothole I'd like to put forward a case for Britains road network and traffic movement being a lot better than many give it credit for.
It's a generalisation that British people love to moan, whether it's about traffic, the price of shopping, the weather, house prices who knows what.
BUT.
I do an awful lot of driving, about 20,000 miles a year on UK roads and I've also visited many major cities in the world too.
In the UK I work to deadlines, I have to be somewhere at a certain time and, invariably I am. I can pretty much always get where I want to at a decent pace and park up relatively easily. The road signs are excellent and the condition of the roads, whilst far from flawless is pretty good too.
If I go to London I expect a lot of traffic but it's nowhere near the chaos you find in Bangkok, Paris, LA, Rome and others.
The motorways I find are normally free flowing and I can average 60 miles an hour, good and well signposted service areas open 24 hours, the regular A roads I find are pretty food too with again superb signposting that's mikes ahead of anywhere else I've been.
Are we a bit guilty of complaining when actually things aren't that bad?
Over 50% of the adult population in Britain are over 50. Half the driving population are therefore whinging old buggers banging on about how everything used to be fields and getting terribly confused. It's a generalisation that British people love to moan, whether it's about traffic, the price of shopping, the weather, house prices who knows what.
BUT.
I do an awful lot of driving, about 20,000 miles a year on UK roads and I've also visited many major cities in the world too.
In the UK I work to deadlines, I have to be somewhere at a certain time and, invariably I am. I can pretty much always get where I want to at a decent pace and park up relatively easily. The road signs are excellent and the condition of the roads, whilst far from flawless is pretty good too.
If I go to London I expect a lot of traffic but it's nowhere near the chaos you find in Bangkok, Paris, LA, Rome and others.
The motorways I find are normally free flowing and I can average 60 miles an hour, good and well signposted service areas open 24 hours, the regular A roads I find are pretty food too with again superb signposting that's mikes ahead of anywhere else I've been.
Are we a bit guilty of complaining when actually things aren't that bad?
Edited by Thankyou4calling on Sunday 2nd August 16:12
Roads and traffic really are that bad. Indeed.
There has been a lull in road building coinciding with traffic increase that makes the SE very very busy and must hamper productivity. The rampant nimby/swampy outlook adds hugely to costs and restricts development. Result is lower quality of life for many and too much pollution as a bonus.
Successive governments have accepted the received wisdom of 'not building a way out of congestion' and the perverse 'new roads create more traffic'. Still happy to increase tax take on vehicle users, though.
Whether we're better or worse than EU or North America misses the point. It should not take >40 minutes to drive across a provincial town like Tunbridge Wells at 08:30 any weekday. That's poor planning imho.
Likewise travelling from Ashford to Maidstone it should be possible to navigate via the A20 (principal route between the two for centuries), but in 2015 there are no signposts on the inner ring road in Ashford to guide you...
There has been a lull in road building coinciding with traffic increase that makes the SE very very busy and must hamper productivity. The rampant nimby/swampy outlook adds hugely to costs and restricts development. Result is lower quality of life for many and too much pollution as a bonus.
Successive governments have accepted the received wisdom of 'not building a way out of congestion' and the perverse 'new roads create more traffic'. Still happy to increase tax take on vehicle users, though.
Whether we're better or worse than EU or North America misses the point. It should not take >40 minutes to drive across a provincial town like Tunbridge Wells at 08:30 any weekday. That's poor planning imho.
Likewise travelling from Ashford to Maidstone it should be possible to navigate via the A20 (principal route between the two for centuries), but in 2015 there are no signposts on the inner ring road in Ashford to guide you...
Leeskiramm said:
s m said:
That is true Chris - I'm lucky to live pretty close to the roads you mention so a fastish car is still enjoyable for me.
Even the B-roads in the South East seem mega busy by comparison
The South East is a nightmare. There's basically never a time I can go out and not hit some traffic somewhere that ruins my enjoyable drive.Even the B-roads in the South East seem mega busy by comparison
I accept it's not a B road, but then an average modern car is exceeding the speed limit on an average B road before it's fun anyway. Unclassified roads are where the fun is.
The Don of Croy said:
though.
Whether we're better or worse than EU or North America misses the point. It should not take >40 minutes to drive across a provincial town like Tunbridge Wells at 08:30 any weekday. That's poor planning imho.
See, I'm not sure it is. I would say most UK towns - provincial or otherwise - were in existence back in the days of horses and carts and everyone walking. The major roads, which are all historic routes that again pre-date the car, go past churches, cathedrals, town halls etc, there is no room to widen any of the roads to take in to account all the traffic that wants to use them. If 100 horse and carts used to cross Tunbridge Wells in 1850, nowadays it could be 20,000 cars. Or even double that (I don't know TW at all). They are still trying to get through the same 15m of available space that has been there for what, 100 years? 1000 years? Then add in to the mix the space needed for peds, cyclists, etc, and you run out of available space. How many people would be happy to knock down big swathes of these town centres just to put an extra lane on the road? How long would it take and how much disruption would it cause? What happens when you get to a 1000 year old church, or a building of significance?Whether we're better or worse than EU or North America misses the point. It should not take >40 minutes to drive across a provincial town like Tunbridge Wells at 08:30 any weekday. That's poor planning imho.
I don't think the planners can be blamed for ever-increasing traffic through towns that have been there for centuries. If they designed a town today, with 8 lane highways and multi-phase junctions, then yes it would be fine today but what about in a few years time - even in the days of the M25 construction, the amount of traffic we are seeing today was never predicted. Traffic miles have doubled in the last 30 years. That's pretty crazy amounts of growth...
Riley Blue said:
rich888 said:
Having driven from the UK into France several times I find the roads in France so much smoother with far less traffic on the roads, anyone who has travelled into France via the Eurotunnel onto the motorway will probably confirm that it's quite easy to do, and driving along smooth roads in France is so very relaxing, now compare that to any poor sod from France travelling north when he hits the congested M25.
Hardly a fair comparison considering the M25 circles London and there's no comparable city within 50 miles of the French end of Eurotunnel. However, once you do reach a sizeable city's motorway network, the congestion isn't so different from the M25; Antwerp and Brussels spring to mind. I can't compare French cities as most of my European motoring since 1970 has been to Germany but I imagine the traffic volumes are similar. Many French motorways are funded by tolls, something that isn't widespread in the UK so again, an unfair comparison.
Fees paid by the motorway concessions
A tax on the revenue from the tolls paid
40% of the revenue from automatic speed cameras
Investment income and
money from the state from general taxation
I've driven extensively in France, including Paris and have driven around Geneva a few times
I'd rather drive in Paris than London or Geneva at any time of the day
alock said:
Leeskiramm said:
s m said:
That is true Chris - I'm lucky to live pretty close to the roads you mention so a fastish car is still enjoyable for me.
Even the B-roads in the South East seem mega busy by comparison
The South East is a nightmare. There's basically never a time I can go out and not hit some traffic somewhere that ruins my enjoyable drive.Even the B-roads in the South East seem mega busy by comparison
I accept it's not a B road, but then an average modern car is exceeding the speed limit on an average B road before it's fun anyway. Unclassified roads are where the fun is.
The army of automaton, sat NAV controlled drones may have ruined some lovely roads but they've free up many other roads.
Edited by DonkeyApple on Monday 3rd August 14:15
Hackney said:
Those in charge of managing the motorway network seem to do a very bad job of it.
Case in point, M25 clockwise from A1 to A10 this morning the gantry signs said:
RED X MEANS LANE CLOSED
X 60 60 60
INCIDENT LANE CLOSED
LANE CLOSED AHEAD
The effect of this was moving 4 lanes of traffic into 3 (except for those who ignored the signs) thus slowing and even stopping the other three lanes as people wondered what was going on.
Is the lane closed?
Is the exist closed?
Shall I get into lane 1 for the exit or will I hit a queue / accident?
No accident, no lane closure, nothing except increased congestion; reduced average speeds across the lanes; lots of late lane changes and distracted drivers as people tried to get into the correct lane.
I know this is just one example but even if there had been an accident or incident as the signs said, surely by the time all the debris and what ever have been removed the signs can be switched off?
Ah, yes, bored control room operators, treating the controls like a games console. Eternal mirth is had by all.Case in point, M25 clockwise from A1 to A10 this morning the gantry signs said:
RED X MEANS LANE CLOSED
X 60 60 60
INCIDENT LANE CLOSED
LANE CLOSED AHEAD
The effect of this was moving 4 lanes of traffic into 3 (except for those who ignored the signs) thus slowing and even stopping the other three lanes as people wondered what was going on.
Is the lane closed?
Is the exist closed?
Shall I get into lane 1 for the exit or will I hit a queue / accident?
No accident, no lane closure, nothing except increased congestion; reduced average speeds across the lanes; lots of late lane changes and distracted drivers as people tried to get into the correct lane.
I know this is just one example but even if there had been an accident or incident as the signs said, surely by the time all the debris and what ever have been removed the signs can be switched off?
rich888 said:
gareth_r said:
You appear to be confused. The purpose of road planning is NOT to allow traffic to flow freely and safely.
The purpose of road planning is to make using the roads so confusing and journey times so long, that everyone gives up on private cars and uses the buses.
Meanwhile, in the real world...
Haha, brilliant!!!The purpose of road planning is to make using the roads so confusing and journey times so long, that everyone gives up on private cars and uses the buses.
Meanwhile, in the real world...
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