RE: BMW M5 30 Jahre: Driven
Discussion
I went and test drove a used M5 yesterday, a late 2012 model on sale at an independant dealer, so i could get a better idea about the car.
Hands up, i have to admit that whilst handling-wise it feels very heavy and the brakes, whilst superb, are clearly having their work cut out and producing a lot of heat, that engine is epic. Fair enough, for that engine to be also capable of 30 mpg on a run is progress indeed for such a big car.
It sounded muted and dull in one way, but also when the turbos were spooled up it had an angry ''get out of my way'' noise also. It also pulled the taller gears with disdain and suddenly 140 mph was showing.
Amazing engine, beautiful inside, but i'd still love it to be 1750 kgs not 1950 kgs. Just like the Nissan GTR, fantastic car, has always been too heavy imho by at least 100 kgs.
Hands up, i have to admit that whilst handling-wise it feels very heavy and the brakes, whilst superb, are clearly having their work cut out and producing a lot of heat, that engine is epic. Fair enough, for that engine to be also capable of 30 mpg on a run is progress indeed for such a big car.
It sounded muted and dull in one way, but also when the turbos were spooled up it had an angry ''get out of my way'' noise also. It also pulled the taller gears with disdain and suddenly 140 mph was showing.
Amazing engine, beautiful inside, but i'd still love it to be 1750 kgs not 1950 kgs. Just like the Nissan GTR, fantastic car, has always been too heavy imho by at least 100 kgs.
CorvetteConvert said:
E65Ross said:
Maybe they want a 5 seater which has a decent size boot.
Tell me then, for your 50k,whicb ferrari has as luxurious an interior as this M5, with as many creature comforts, a boot as big and, here's the big one..... Gas the same performance as this.
Also.... Whilst M5 servicing isn't cheap, it's a lot cheaper than a Ferrari
You're being daft suggesting that as a viable alternative.
To those moaning about it, and the weight etc... Don't understand the point of the M5.
Someone above said the E34 was just as luxurious as the F10 M5. Erm, no it isn't E34s are miles off in terms of refinement for starters!
You are being daft thinking an M Car should be a 2 tonne barge. It's meant to be a mentalist high performance saloon. Get a used Phaeton 6.0 W12 for £30K and forget £90K on the M5. Just like the post just below yours said, unnecessary weight and toys should not be the point of an M Car.Tell me then, for your 50k,whicb ferrari has as luxurious an interior as this M5, with as many creature comforts, a boot as big and, here's the big one..... Gas the same performance as this.
Also.... Whilst M5 servicing isn't cheap, it's a lot cheaper than a Ferrari
You're being daft suggesting that as a viable alternative.
To those moaning about it, and the weight etc... Don't understand the point of the M5.
Someone above said the E34 was just as luxurious as the F10 M5. Erm, no it isn't E34s are miles off in terms of refinement for starters!
E65Ross, i am curious. Are you really saying an M Car can be any weight?
I thought the whole idea of the M range was the lighter, more powerful version of the stocker? This subject splits opinion i guess, as do so many topics on PH. But then if we all thought the same i guess the forum would be redundant!
I have always liked light weight. I like the idea of good old Mr Chapman. To go faster you add lightness. it's why i drive the 'vette. The weight of a VW Golf and over 500 bhp as standard with no chargers in sight. For £40K used.
I thought the whole idea of the M range was the lighter, more powerful version of the stocker? This subject splits opinion i guess, as do so many topics on PH. But then if we all thought the same i guess the forum would be redundant!
I have always liked light weight. I like the idea of good old Mr Chapman. To go faster you add lightness. it's why i drive the 'vette. The weight of a VW Golf and over 500 bhp as standard with no chargers in sight. For £40K used.
CorvetteConvert said:
E65Ross said:
Maybe they want a 5 seater which has a decent size boot.
Tell me then, for your 50k,whicb ferrari has as luxurious an interior as this M5, with as many creature comforts, a boot as big and, here's the big one..... Gas the same performance as this.
Also.... Whilst M5 servicing isn't cheap, it's a lot cheaper than a Ferrari
You're being daft suggesting that as a viable alternative.
To those moaning about it, and the weight etc... Don't understand the point of the M5.
Someone above said the E34 was just as luxurious as the F10 M5. Erm, no it isn't E34s are miles off in terms of refinement for starters!
You are being daft thinking an M Car should be a 2 tonne barge. It's meant to be a mentalist high performance saloon. Get a used Phaeton 6.0 W12 for £30K and forget £90K on the M5. Just like the post just below yours said, unnecessary weight and toys should not be the point of an M Car.Tell me then, for your 50k,whicb ferrari has as luxurious an interior as this M5, with as many creature comforts, a boot as big and, here's the big one..... Gas the same performance as this.
Also.... Whilst M5 servicing isn't cheap, it's a lot cheaper than a Ferrari
You're being daft suggesting that as a viable alternative.
To those moaning about it, and the weight etc... Don't understand the point of the M5.
Someone above said the E34 was just as luxurious as the F10 M5. Erm, no it isn't E34s are miles off in terms of refinement for starters!
To conclude, i drove it, i loved much of it. Great interior. Storming motor, indeed how just 4.4 litres does what it does with that weight is incredible, whilst being docile and economical when required.
But an M5 CSL with a tad more power (nice round 600 bhp) and 200 kgs less would be the absolute business and i'd be checking the bank balance to see if i could buy one if that was on the market.
But an M5 CSL with a tad more power (nice round 600 bhp) and 200 kgs less would be the absolute business and i'd be checking the bank balance to see if i could buy one if that was on the market.
Quickmoose said:
Wills2 said:
This is because you haven't got the first idea what the M5 is about.
leave your handbag at the door please. I don't pretend to know or undermine your auto based knowledge or experience it would be polite not to pretend the same of me, ta muchly. I'm expressing an opinion.Wills2 said:
its always been the heaviest model in the 5 series line up and the most luxurious with heated, electric leather everything.
In fact EVERY M car barring the sales disaster that was e46 CSL has been the heaviest most loaded with kit product within its range.
They have never made this mythical lightweight M5 that you speak about, ever, this is because the people that actually buy them want them this way.
It's a powerful luxurious daily driver capable of carrying 4 people and their luggage across large distances at speed and in comfort, always has been and always will be, what part of that can't you get your head around?
So In fact EVERY M car barring the sales disaster that was e46 CSL has been the heaviest most loaded with kit product within its range.
They have never made this mythical lightweight M5 that you speak about, ever, this is because the people that actually buy them want them this way.
It's a powerful luxurious daily driver capable of carrying 4 people and their luggage across large distances at speed and in comfort, always has been and always will be, what part of that can't you get your head around?
a) I've never said they have made a mythical lighweight 5
b) I'm pretty sure the new M5 comes with more gadgetry and luxury guff than the first.
c) The part of it I 'can't get my head around' ...again is the Motorsport badging - Ive never seen luxury cars race before.
d) I've already said that I understand the M brand is for people that want it all, a nod to giant slaying perfromance with a big slice of wafting with stuff done for them, and to hell with the nannying electronics and related weight and complex stuff needed t keep it all in check. which it does VERY well....and
d) The thread is about the 30 Jahre, get your head round that
You keep talking about weight and attributing that to a car that has never been a lightweight sports car, I merely tried (in vain) to point this out. It's always been the heaviest fastest most luxurious 5 series available.
The Jahre 30 is an M5 is it not? Just one with 40hp more than standard and different interior so the point is the same.
Your reasoning is circular.
CorvetteConvert said:
E65Ross, i am curious. Are you really saying an M Car can be any weight?
I thought the whole idea of the M range was the lighter, more powerful version of the stocker?
Every single M car ever built has been the heaviest of the range bar the E30 M3 where it had a 4 cylinder engine vs the 6 cylinder from the 325i and the E46 M3csl and E92 M3 GTS which were special editions. Every other M3, M5 or M6 has always been heavier. So what you thought isn't quote right. I thought the whole idea of the M range was the lighter, more powerful version of the stocker?
No, of course I don't think they should weigh whatever, but they do need to meet market demands to sell. I suspect BMW know a bit more about that than you or I, mind.
CorvetteConvert said:
No you misunderstand me. I mean if you want a heavy barge with a big fast engine get a used Phaeton W12 and spend the other fifty grand on a proper sports car for the weekend.
A used 997 4S maybe!
I think as you realised yourself there aren't many saloons out there quite like an M5... so taking your arguement about having a saloon and a proper sports car, I'd rather still have an M5 to fill the daily role, and 'something else' for the weekends. Not sure what that would be though - a C4S would be a little sedate compared to the family car A used 997 4S maybe!
CorvetteConvert said:
To conclude, i drove it, i loved much of it. Great interior. Storming motor, indeed how just 4.4 litres does what it does with that weight is incredible, whilst being docile and economical when required.
But an M5 CSL with a tad more power (nice round 600 bhp) and 200 kgs less would be the absolute business and i'd be checking the bank balance to see if i could buy one if that was on the market.
I don't really understand the point of such a car. An M5 is a luxurious saloon that can seat 4 people in comfort, but when the mood takes you can make a passable impression of a sports car. The "CSL" part of that would render the first function an impossibility, and only slightly enhancing the second, but still being too big to properly cut it. The whole dual-role nature of these cars would be destroyedBut an M5 CSL with a tad more power (nice round 600 bhp) and 200 kgs less would be the absolute business and i'd be checking the bank balance to see if i could buy one if that was on the market.
An M3 CSL is a smallish, relatively raw vehicle that can sometimes turn its hand to practical matters if required. The issue was many early owners required daily driving duties of it, which it's just not properly able for IME. M5s can (extreme thirst notwithstanding)
CorvetteConvert said:
To conclude, i drove it, i loved much of it. Great interior. Storming motor, indeed how just 4.4 litres does what it does with that weight is incredible, whilst being docile and economical when required.
But an M5 CSL with a tad more power (nice round 600 bhp) and 200 kgs less would be the absolute business and i'd be checking the bank balance to see if i could buy one if that was on the market.
A stripped out saloon? What a ridiculous idea!But an M5 CSL with a tad more power (nice round 600 bhp) and 200 kgs less would be the absolute business and i'd be checking the bank balance to see if i could buy one if that was on the market.
E65Ross said:
Every single M car ever built has been the heaviest of the range bar the E30 M3 where it had a 4 cylinder engine vs the 6 cylinder from the 325i and the E46 M3csl and E92 M3 GTS which were special editions. Every other M3, M5 or M6 has always been heavier.
It's always amusing to see how many people seem to insist otherwise. Wills2 said:
No handbags or insults in my post? Just a statement that having read your posts it's clear (not only just to me) that you don't have a clue what the M5 is about.
You keep talking about weight and attributing that to a car that has never been a lightweight sports car, I merely tried (in vain) to point this out. It's always been the heaviest fastest most luxurious 5 series available.
The Jahre 30 is an M5 is it not? Just one with 40hp more than standard and different interior so the point is the same.
Your reasoning is circular.
To assume that by reading my posts and decide that I have 'no clue' what an M5 is about, marks you as bit special IMO, it's pure conjecture. What is fact is you know nothing about me, you only know my opinions.You keep talking about weight and attributing that to a car that has never been a lightweight sports car, I merely tried (in vain) to point this out. It's always been the heaviest fastest most luxurious 5 series available.
The Jahre 30 is an M5 is it not? Just one with 40hp more than standard and different interior so the point is the same.
Your reasoning is circular.
Nowhere have I suggesed that the M5 should be a stripped out light-weight, the fact that the M has always been the heaviest 5, bears little relevance to an age whereby unless the thing is computer controlled and has huge amounts of power it couldn't perform the way it does, and therefore performs less well as a result of it's weight, or would perform even better without the fat.
I have (repeatedly) admitted that it would seem the buyers of such cars aren't really interested in the Motorsport marketing/badge, they just want the badge as it represents the best, most luxurious(and heaviest) version. The fact it has a party trick of belying the fat is IMO just that.
The 30 Jahre is just another M5 with a bit more power, but if you'd read the psts properly rather than skimming you' have noticed that the point being made was...the 30 Jahre is a celebration of the best an M5 can be (and you're all for more weight and luxury right?) so why then would BMW not have this car with everything on it?
Delete as you see fit by all means, but it clearly isn't the best BMW can make because the options allow for more...
If digression is avoidable, the discussion would benefit
Quickmoose said:
I have (repeatedly) admitted that it would seem the buyers of such cars aren't really interested in the Motorsport marketing/badge, they just want the badge as it represents the best, most luxurious(and heaviest) version. The fact it has a party trick of belying the fat is IMO just that.
I don't agree with this - the M5 clearly has a performance edge and compromises have been made in respect of luxury/comfort to improve performance, here's an example:http://www.bmwblog.com/2011/06/26/bmwblog-tech-ana...
"BMW’s F10 M5 will feature a rear sub-frame bolted directly to the frame. There will be no rubber or even urethane bushings to offer any cushioning, and as a result this typical race car setup will allow for direct, precise road feel from the rear. This setup will also contribute to the reportedly highly neutral (and highly driftable!) handling of the new M5."
If M5 buyers really just wanted the best, most luxurious and heaviest version of anything they'd buy a 760i, right?
Quickmoose said:
To assume that by reading my posts and decide that I have 'no clue' what an M5 is about, marks you as bit special IMO, it's pure conjecture. What is fact is you know nothing about me, you only know my opinions.
Nowhere have I suggesed that the M5 should be a stripped out light-weight, the fact that the M has always been the heaviest 5, bears little relevance to an age whereby unless the thing is computer controlled and has huge amounts of power it couldn't perform the way it does, and therefore performs less well as a result of it's weight, or would perform even better without the fat.
But M5s have always had all the readily available electronic stuff to keep it on the road. Of course the F10 M5 couldn't perform the way it does without clever electronics. Neither could the E34 M5 with its ABS etc. Or the E39 with all its stability management software etc. Nowhere have I suggesed that the M5 should be a stripped out light-weight, the fact that the M has always been the heaviest 5, bears little relevance to an age whereby unless the thing is computer controlled and has huge amounts of power it couldn't perform the way it does, and therefore performs less well as a result of it's weight, or would perform even better without the fat.
In fact, neither could a McLaren 675LT. Or is that too heavy too because it needs electrics to control it's performance?
The trouble is that you seem to (as do others) think that the M5 has come away from its heritage of being a lightweight fast saloon car and turned into a fat saloon car which happens to go very well despite its mass. The fact is that the M5 has never been a lightweight car, ever. It's always been heavy by its contemporaries. Once you get that into your head and realise the point of the M5 throughout all its 5 generations you'll realise that it's still very good at doing what even the 1st was built to do.
Oh - and you did suggest it should be quite stripped out...... I mean thin bucket seats (reduced comfort), thinner glass (less sound insulation), wind down rear windows (seriously?)..... You just show you miss the point of what the car is, and always has been, about.
Edited by E65Ross on Tuesday 11th August 16:09
E65Ross said:
..The trouble is that you seem to (as do others) think that the M5 has come away from its heritage of being a lightweight fast saloon car and turned into a fat saloon car which happens to go very well despite its mass. The fact is that the M5 has never been a lightweight car, ever. It's always been heavy by its contemporaries. Once you get that into your head and realise the point of the M5 throughout all its 5 generations you'll realise that it's still very good at doing what even the 1st was built to do.
Oh - and you did suggest it should be quite stripped out...... I mean thin bucket seats (reduced comfort), thinner glass (less sound insulation), wind down rear windows (seriously?)..... You just show you miss the point of what the car is, and always has been, about.
Ross is right, but he misses the point that it can lighter (A8) and still meet its role as a comfortable large sports saloon. Oh - and you did suggest it should be quite stripped out...... I mean thin bucket seats (reduced comfort), thinner glass (less sound insulation), wind down rear windows (seriously?)..... You just show you miss the point of what the car is, and always has been, about.
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