RE: Porsche not perfect shocker: PH Blog
Discussion
blueg33 said:
PDK is intoxicating and maked the car quicker, for me it took away one of the pleasures of driving a fast car well - a perfectly executed heel and toe gear change.
And even we chumps who cock up h&t 9/10 times can still miss the manual change 
PDK is so easy to sell on a test drive or track day, because it is so much better than an old-school auto and it lets you drive very quickly very easily.
Since I got back into a manual car, it is coming back to me that it's actually not that easy to drive a powerful car quickly and smoothly. PDK makes it too easy, though.
I think Porsche is on to something with taking people to the PEC. It will make all the stuff that doesn't matter on the road seem worth having - switchable dampers, etc etc. And the 981/991 is so damn competent and refined that it only really feels alive at speed.
I bet a lot of people who are blown away with a car at PEC then wonder what was so special about it when they drive one on the road for a few weeks or months.
A Targa 4S, for example, is a 1700kg blob and (according to reviews) kinda feels that way on the road, but I have no doubt that it would excell on track (like all AWD Pork).
Rowley Birkin said:
blueg33 said:
PDK is intoxicating and maked the car quicker, for me it took away one of the pleasures of driving a fast car well - a perfectly executed heel and toe gear change.
I feel much the same way about the manual choke.The whole point of sports cars for many is driving enjoyment, the application of a level of skill, harmonising the elements of the car. There is virtually no skill needed to operate a manual choke, there is a reasonable amount needed to make a perfect gear change, modulate the brake pressure, feel what the front wheels are doing etc, select the best line and steer into it etc
For you sir may I recommend -
ORD said:
SidewaysSi said:
I only partially agree. The best cars for me are those which are alive at all speeds. My Elise is hugely entertaining at a 30mph bumble through town, primarily because its steering is truly brilliant.
Add in a few roundabouts and it is a car which more than shows its hand.
A great Welsh road is all well and good but for me, the mark of a great car is its ability to deliver at all speeds.
True. But driving an Elise up to Scotland would a bit of an ordeal, for example. Add in a few roundabouts and it is a car which more than shows its hand.
A great Welsh road is all well and good but for me, the mark of a great car is its ability to deliver at all speeds.
I'm not necasarily sure that celebrating a sports car's ability to cover huge distances like a photo copier vendor's company saloon is a huge positive?
Surely an ordeal is something to look forward to and to relish the prospect then experience of? Without such there cannot be any actual reward.
DonkeyApple said:
ORD said:
SidewaysSi said:
I only partially agree. The best cars for me are those which are alive at all speeds. My Elise is hugely entertaining at a 30mph bumble through town, primarily because its steering is truly brilliant.
Add in a few roundabouts and it is a car which more than shows its hand.
A great Welsh road is all well and good but for me, the mark of a great car is its ability to deliver at all speeds.
True. But driving an Elise up to Scotland would a bit of an ordeal, for example. Add in a few roundabouts and it is a car which more than shows its hand.
A great Welsh road is all well and good but for me, the mark of a great car is its ability to deliver at all speeds.
I'm not necasarily sure that celebrating a sports car's ability to cover huge distances like a photo copier vendor's company saloon is a huge positive?
Surely an ordeal is something to look forward to and to relish the prospect then experience of? Without such there cannot be any actual reward.
The Evora has wide sills and getting in and out is a little harder (not a lot harder, just a little)than with other cars, oddly for me and others, this adds to the sense of occasion, you know even before you put the key in the ignition that its something a bit unusual and a bit special, and then it never fails to deliver on that promise when you drive it.
blueg33 said:
What a stupid comment, if that logic made any sense at all you would be advocating driverless cars, there is no doubt they will very shortly do the driving better than any human.
The whole point of sports cars for many is driving enjoyment, the application of a level of skill, harmonising the elements of the car. There is virtually no skill needed to operate a manual choke, there is a reasonable amount needed to make a perfect gear change, modulate the brake pressure, feel what the front wheels are doing etc, select the best line and steer into it etc
For you sir may I recommend -
Now no one invited Mr Grumpy to play, did they? The whole point of sports cars for many is driving enjoyment, the application of a level of skill, harmonising the elements of the car. There is virtually no skill needed to operate a manual choke, there is a reasonable amount needed to make a perfect gear change, modulate the brake pressure, feel what the front wheels are doing etc, select the best line and steer into it etc
For you sir may I recommend -
Rowley Birkin said:
blueg33 said:
What a stupid comment, if that logic made any sense at all you would be advocating driverless cars, there is no doubt they will very shortly do the driving better than any human.
The whole point of sports cars for many is driving enjoyment, the application of a level of skill, harmonising the elements of the car. There is virtually no skill needed to operate a manual choke, there is a reasonable amount needed to make a perfect gear change, modulate the brake pressure, feel what the front wheels are doing etc, select the best line and steer into it etc
For you sir may I recommend -
Now no one invited Mr Grumpy to play, did they? The whole point of sports cars for many is driving enjoyment, the application of a level of skill, harmonising the elements of the car. There is virtually no skill needed to operate a manual choke, there is a reasonable amount needed to make a perfect gear change, modulate the brake pressure, feel what the front wheels are doing etc, select the best line and steer into it etc
For you sir may I recommend -
Ay my age grumpiness is a right if not an imperative ORD said:
Rowley Birkin said:
In my experience it's easy to be seduced by the 991 when you have it for short periods of time. Living with the thing day-to-day life becomes boring.
When I sold my 991 I felt not a flicker of remorse. It was like having been in a relationship with a beautiful woman who cooked beautifully, shagged like a w
e and ironed to perfection but who couldn't hold an interesting conversation.
You've lost me with the analogy. Anyone sane would miss that wife.When I sold my 991 I felt not a flicker of remorse. It was like having been in a relationship with a beautiful woman who cooked beautifully, shagged like a w
e and ironed to perfection but who couldn't hold an interesting conversation.ORD said:
True. But driving an Elise up to Scotland would a bit of an ordeal, for example.
I think this highlights where it's simply the owners who are so different and it reflects the cars they choose. Before I bought my S1 Elise a decade and a half ago, I distinctly remember seeing two azure blue S1s on campsites in the Lakes and Chamonix where their drivers were, most likely, climbing during the day and sleeping in a small, lightweight tents during the night. When I bought one, I did exactly the same and have taken it on climbing trips to Glen Coe and around several times, also similar to Bluegg I've been across the Pyrenees and down to the South of France in it (air con may have been a plus there). I find it tremendously comfortable for my back on long drives (actually better than both Jags I've owned during that time, which were themselves pretty darn comfy) and I actually love jumping down into the snug cockpit and haring off, eschewing ear plugs and indulging in bouts of the motoring hacks' fabled permagrin. The kinds of people who like Elises do these things. The kinds that find any of the above anathema should obviously choose a different car, and thank heavens for Porches for them. Must admit though, that my next Lotus is likely to be an Evora because the extra stowage space and previously mentioned air con would be welcome next time ... my S1 has been a DD for stretches during this time, but it's mostly my second car nowadays. The Evora could put an end to owning 2 personal cars for me ... but I still might not be able to let the Elise go ... and just to add, I've had my eye on a 997 turbo for a while now as well, so I definitely get Porches.Edited by Dr Jezz on Wednesday 16th September 00:27
Edited by Dr Jezz on Wednesday 16th September 00:30
Dr Jezz said:
I think this highlights where it's simply the owners who are so different and it reflects the cars they choose. Before I bought my S1 Elise a decade and a half ago, I distinctly remember seeing two azure blue S1s on campsites in the Lakes and Chamonix where there drivers were, most likely, climbing during the day and sleeping in a small, lightweight tents during the day. When I bought one, I did exactly the same and have taken it on climbing trips to Glen Coe and around several times, also similar to Bluegg I've been across the Pyrenees and down to the South of France in it (air con may have been a plus there). I find it tremendously comfortable for my back on long drives (actually better than both Jags I've owned during that time, which were themselves pretty darn comfy) and I actually love jumping down into the snug cockpit and haring off, eschewing ear plugs and indulging in bouts of the motoring hacks' fabled permagrin. The kinds of people who like Elises do these things. The kinds that find any of the above anathema should obviously choose a different car, and thank heavens for Porches for them. Must admit though, that my next Lotus is likely to be an Evora because the extra stowage space and previously mentioned air con would be welcome next time ... my S1 has been a DD for stretches during this time, but it's mostly my second car nowadays. The Evora could put an end to owning 2 personal cars for me ... but I still might not be able to let the Elise go ... and just to add, I've had my eye on a 997 turbo for a while now as well, so I definitely get Porches.
The Evora put an end to owning two personal cars for me Aircon works fine, heater is only average in the depths of winterDr Jezz said:
I think this highlights where it's simply the owners who are so different and it reflects the cars they choose. Before I bought my S1 Elise a decade and a half ago, I distinctly remember seeing two azure blue S1s on campsites in the Lakes and Chamonix where there drivers were, most likely, climbing during the day and sleeping in a small, lightweight tents during the day. When I bought one, I did exactly the same and have taken it on climbing trips to Glen Coe and around several times, also similar to Bluegg I've been across the Pyrenees and down to the South of France in it (air con may have been a plus there). I find it tremendously comfortable for my back on long drives (actually better than both Jags I've owned during that time, which were themselves pretty darn comfy) and I actually love jumping down into the snug cockpit and haring off, eschewing ear plugs and indulging in bouts of the motoring hacks' fabled permagrin. The kinds of people who like Elises do these things. The kinds that find any of the above anathema should obviously choose a different car, and thank heavens for Porches for them. Must admit though, that my next Lotus is likely to be an Evora because the extra stowage space and previously mentioned air con would be welcome next time ... my S1 has been a DD for stretches during this time, but it's mostly my second car nowadays. The Evora could put an end to owning 2 personal cars for me ... but I still might not be able to let the Elise go ... and just to add, I've had my eye on a 997 turbo for a while now as well, so I definitely get Porches.
Very true. I camped several times as a teenager and have never been prepared to do it since I discovered hotels. Different strokes for different folks. ORD said:
blueg33 said:
PDK is intoxicating and maked the car quicker, for me it took away one of the pleasures of driving a fast car well - a perfectly executed heel and toe gear change.
And even we chumps who cock up h&t 9/10 times can still miss the manual change PDK is so easy to sell on a test drive or track day, because it is so much better than an old-school auto and it lets you drive very quickly very easily.
I think Porsche is on to something with taking people to the PEC. It will make all the stuff that doesn't matter on the road seem worth having - switchable dampers, etc etc. And the 981/991 is so damn competent and refined that it only really feels alive at speed.
I bet a lot of people who are blown away with a car at PEC then wonder what was so special about it when they drive one on the road for a few weeks or months....
Hopefully you're wrong about not liking the car after living with it for a few months.
RobM77 said:
blueg33 said:
The Evora put an end to owning two personal cars for me Aircon works fine, heater is only average in the depths of winter
oh how I wish I didn't need a tow bar and roof bars!... If I didn't I'd have an Evora or another Elise in an instant. Aircon works fine, heater is only average in the depths of winterSirSquidalot said:
Porsche are guilty of stuffing press cars with options, but then again aren't all manufacturers?
Cars should be tested on the base spec sold that way we get a benchmark.
Here's an example of how just 1 option can confuse things.
A base GTS is £ 91,098.00 incl. VAT
A Carrera S with PDK is £ 85,933.00 incl. VAT
But due to the option of the gearbox the Carrera S is quicker in acceleration and a few grand cheaper. Doesn't make the base model GTS look good value does it?
Joe public mostly care about stats and a base model GTS just wouldn't add up compared to a Carrera S with a few boxes ticked.
See table, Carrera S on left and GTS on right:
You are ignoring the fact that the GTS has better handling than a standard C2s and feels far more special in general....Cars should be tested on the base spec sold that way we get a benchmark.
Here's an example of how just 1 option can confuse things.
A base GTS is £ 91,098.00 incl. VAT
A Carrera S with PDK is £ 85,933.00 incl. VAT
But due to the option of the gearbox the Carrera S is quicker in acceleration and a few grand cheaper. Doesn't make the base model GTS look good value does it?
Joe public mostly care about stats and a base model GTS just wouldn't add up compared to a Carrera S with a few boxes ticked.
See table, Carrera S on left and GTS on right:
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