RE: Porsche not perfect shocker: PH Blog
Discussion
Having just specced and bought a GTS, I can agree the range of car defining options is exhausting (and confusing). I mused over pdk vs manual for the very reason that this choice alone dramatically altered the car dynamics, feel and indeed ethos.
So in some respects Dan has a fair point but it is no different to many other top end marques.
Still love my GTS though and it makes me smile when I look at it AND when I drive it and whatever anyone else says , that's good enough for me
So in some respects Dan has a fair point but it is no different to many other top end marques.
Still love my GTS though and it makes me smile when I look at it AND when I drive it and whatever anyone else says , that's good enough for me
Funny, because there was a recent thread discussing the c2, saying it was 117k on average. And yet, I had one poster trying to tell me that the base model was available from 73k.
Almost no one, NO ONE, buys the base model, so what relevance does it have in the marketplace? 3/4 of 4/5 of SFA.
The "base model" may as well be a figment of imagination for all the good it does. Its just a platform for people to start throwing money at.
I think someone needs to figure out what the most common platform is, and then use THAT as the "standard". Forget base model, as its only an IT idiots wet dream blank canvas.
Almost no one, NO ONE, buys the base model, so what relevance does it have in the marketplace? 3/4 of 4/5 of SFA.
The "base model" may as well be a figment of imagination for all the good it does. Its just a platform for people to start throwing money at.
I think someone needs to figure out what the most common platform is, and then use THAT as the "standard". Forget base model, as its only an IT idiots wet dream blank canvas.
Here's an idea - why don't car manufacturers offer the following (for sports cars):
Basic Build -
Mr A. would like a car to cruise to work and back with no intention of seeing a track - so he gets a pre-specced car (as designed by the manufacturer), this car will be compliant with all the accessories to make his car as cosseting and comfortable as possible.
Mr B. would like a car that he can use at the weekend, it will be driven enthusiastically in the occasions that he drives it. He may go to one track day per year, but predominantly will be used for A/B road blats. He will have a car pre-specced with bolstered seats, adjustable suspension and the noisy exhaust. the car will still have Sat-Nav and some toys for his enjoyment.
Lastly, Mr C. would like a car that is purely designed for his sole enjoyment. Likelihood will be a track veteran - often travels to Spa and Nurburgring for amateur racing or open days. He needs a car to be as light as possible. He doesn't want toys or heated this and lane depart that. Just a body, sticky tyres with lightweight wheels and a stonking engine that he will rag s
tless. He will be offered the club sport pack (or some such name).
No with each of these basic builds, you can go in, have an idea of how you want your car to be, and the manufacturer will cater for you accordingly.
For others, who want to cherry pick. You can still customise your car with individual options.
I think that the pre-packaged cars, would suit a lot of people who may get confused by the multitude of options offered. Journo's would know exactly what car they're testing and baseline it against other magazines.
Basic Build -
Mr A. would like a car to cruise to work and back with no intention of seeing a track - so he gets a pre-specced car (as designed by the manufacturer), this car will be compliant with all the accessories to make his car as cosseting and comfortable as possible.
Mr B. would like a car that he can use at the weekend, it will be driven enthusiastically in the occasions that he drives it. He may go to one track day per year, but predominantly will be used for A/B road blats. He will have a car pre-specced with bolstered seats, adjustable suspension and the noisy exhaust. the car will still have Sat-Nav and some toys for his enjoyment.
Lastly, Mr C. would like a car that is purely designed for his sole enjoyment. Likelihood will be a track veteran - often travels to Spa and Nurburgring for amateur racing or open days. He needs a car to be as light as possible. He doesn't want toys or heated this and lane depart that. Just a body, sticky tyres with lightweight wheels and a stonking engine that he will rag s
tless. He will be offered the club sport pack (or some such name). No with each of these basic builds, you can go in, have an idea of how you want your car to be, and the manufacturer will cater for you accordingly.
For others, who want to cherry pick. You can still customise your car with individual options.
I think that the pre-packaged cars, would suit a lot of people who may get confused by the multitude of options offered. Journo's would know exactly what car they're testing and baseline it against other magazines.
Witnessing a miracle, a journo who criticises Porsche. However it seems pretty common now.
It seems out continental friends do not know when to stop sometimes. The fanatical pursuit of engineering perfection made the 911 into a great car after many years of trying. It seems the law of diminishing return and the consumer who cannot comprehend properly what they are being sold are taking a toll on Porsche.
That is before considering the other, better and sometimes cheaper cars now available to purchase instead. Mid engined cars expecially.
It is a tiny subsidiary of VW Group and it seems that last thtree years are starting to make that very obvious.
It seems out continental friends do not know when to stop sometimes. The fanatical pursuit of engineering perfection made the 911 into a great car after many years of trying. It seems the law of diminishing return and the consumer who cannot comprehend properly what they are being sold are taking a toll on Porsche.
That is before considering the other, better and sometimes cheaper cars now available to purchase instead. Mid engined cars expecially.
It is a tiny subsidiary of VW Group and it seems that last thtree years are starting to make that very obvious.
I thought there was going to be a complement directed at Lotus, the totally "none rival" rival for the 911, with its simplistic options available and something called steering feel.
Having sat in the new Evora 400 and listened to the engine this weekend, I must say it flicks far more emotional switches than any 911 I have sat in recently. Im looking forward to a drive in one!
Having sat in the new Evora 400 and listened to the engine this weekend, I must say it flicks far more emotional switches than any 911 I have sat in recently. Im looking forward to a drive in one!
IMI A said:
I think the biggest issue is since the 911 morphed into the 991 it is no longer a sports car. Its a sports coupe GT which rather misses the point if you drive air-cooled 911, 996, 997, Boxster or Cayman.
The 911 hasn't been a sports car since the 993. Indeed I personally don't consider any of the water cooled cars to be 911 because up to that point, just about everything on them was still interchangeable with any that came before it. Much like I don't consider the mk3 MX-5 to be an MX-5. I do wish they'd move on from the 911 moniker when they went watercooled and the daft legacy of the rear engined layout. But I suppose they tried that in the 80's and the flat earthers were up in arms about it and essentially forced their hand to keep them going. Shame for people who like the other cars that Porsche make/made. PhantomPH said:
In my book, car options should be purely cosmetic only. A Porsche GTS should be a Porsche GTS for everyone who buys it - and then if we want to add nav, electric this or that, blue dials, pink headlining...have at it!
To extreme this logic, surely Porsche (or any manufacturer) could just sell one car and then have a HUGE options list.
"I'd like a Porsche 911, please"
"Certainly sir - base price is £50.00 now just start ticking those boxes until you run out of cash"
Think of it like the 'make your own pizza' counter in your local ASDA. You have one or two bases and then you add and pay for whatever you want on top.
What you really have to ask yourself is 'what really IS a 911 GTS?'. Really, it's just a badge - a plain pizza base on which any old fool can add enough of a combination of toppings to end up with an awesome creation or a nasty tasting mess.
To extreme this logic, surely Porsche (or any manufacturer) could just sell one car and then have a HUGE options list.
"I'd like a Porsche 911, please"
"Certainly sir - base price is £50.00 now just start ticking those boxes until you run out of cash"
Think of it like the 'make your own pizza' counter in your local ASDA. You have one or two bases and then you add and pay for whatever you want on top.
What you really have to ask yourself is 'what really IS a 911 GTS?'. Really, it's just a badge - a plain pizza base on which any old fool can add enough of a combination of toppings to end up with an awesome creation or a nasty tasting mess.
British Beef said:
I thought there was going to be a complement directed at Lotus, the totally "none rival" rival for the 911, with its simplistic options available and something called steering feel.
Having sat in the new Evora 400 and listened to the engine this weekend, I must say it flicks far more emotional switches than any 911 I have sat in recently. Im looking forward to a drive in one!
That's the good bit! Enjoy Having sat in the new Evora 400 and listened to the engine this weekend, I must say it flicks far more emotional switches than any 911 I have sat in recently. Im looking forward to a drive in one!
I think it is a direct competitor for certain people, but not for others. The 911 is one of those cars that appeals on many different levels to many different people. Lotus aren't wrong, the Evora is a direct competitor for many of those things, but not others. I certainly think anyone thinking of buying a Cayman or 911 should drive an Evora first.
big_rob_sydney said:
Funny, because there was a recent thread discussing the c2, saying it was 117k on average. And yet, I had one poster trying to tell me that the base model was available from 73k.
Almost no one, NO ONE, buys the base model, so what relevance does it have in the marketplace? 3/4 of 4/5 of SFA.
The "base model" may as well be a figment of imagination for all the good it does. Its just a platform for people to start throwing money at.
I think someone needs to figure out what the most common platform is, and then use THAT as the "standard". Forget base model, as its only an IT idiots wet dream blank canvas.
I'm sure I read somewhere that the 'S' outsells the non-'S' by 3-to-1. That may have been regarding the 997 actually, but I can't imagine much change for the 991.Almost no one, NO ONE, buys the base model, so what relevance does it have in the marketplace? 3/4 of 4/5 of SFA.
The "base model" may as well be a figment of imagination for all the good it does. Its just a platform for people to start throwing money at.
I think someone needs to figure out what the most common platform is, and then use THAT as the "standard". Forget base model, as its only an IT idiots wet dream blank canvas.
I think even a glance of the classifieds suggests that the 'S' models have a greater market share than their base models.
British Beef said:
Having sat in the new Evora 400 and listened to the engine this weekend, I must say it flicks far more emotional switches than any 911 I have sat in recently. Im looking forward to a drive in one!
I'm coming to the same conclusion.I had a lovely 964 a few years ago (sold just before prices went mental onviously) which got me into Porsches.
But every newer Porsche I've driven hasn't quite hit the spot emotionally. Admittedly I haven't driven a 997 or 991 GT3 but have driven their lesser siblings.
I love the idea of a Cayman but having tried a few I struggled to love them. I respect them but don't desire to own one.
I'm currently thinking a Lotus or an older Aston V8 Vantage might ring my bell.
I don't care about lap times I just want something with a bit of character.
Just to add to this little rant - I'm (theoretically) paying Porsche to provide me with a sports car. Don't options that fundamentally change the characteristics of the car, imply that the customer knows better than the engineers? Or that (worse still) they have INTENTIONALLY engineered a car that is not very good unless I add high priced options?
If I were to order my Porsche and the salesman said, "Do you want active engine mounts and funky suspension?", I would have to reply with, "How the fk should I know?? I've never worked in your engineering or test department!!".
"Well, can I try two cars please? One with and one without and see which I prefer?"
"No Sir - we don't have any to test drive / everyone always ticks the funky suspension box"
At which point you are running the risk of making a very expensive mistake. It would be easy to assume that ticking every box gave you the best possible 911, but the reality is that that is not always the case.
Here's a radical thought - I buy a Porsche that your engineers have decided is the RIGHT set up and has the RIGHT road manners...THAT'S WHAT I'M bd-WELL PAYING YOU £100k+ FOR!!! Then I can choose the colours and the cloth and the stereo...you know...the st that doesn't matter/doesn't assume a knowledge of automotive engineering.
If I were to order my Porsche and the salesman said, "Do you want active engine mounts and funky suspension?", I would have to reply with, "How the f
k should I know?? I've never worked in your engineering or test department!!"."Well, can I try two cars please? One with and one without and see which I prefer?"
"No Sir - we don't have any to test drive / everyone always ticks the funky suspension box"
At which point you are running the risk of making a very expensive mistake. It would be easy to assume that ticking every box gave you the best possible 911, but the reality is that that is not always the case.
Here's a radical thought - I buy a Porsche that your engineers have decided is the RIGHT set up and has the RIGHT road manners...THAT'S WHAT I'M b
d-WELL PAYING YOU £100k+ FOR!!! Then I can choose the colours and the cloth and the stereo...you know...the st that doesn't matter/doesn't assume a knowledge of automotive engineering.The huge level of customisation and options now available at the cheaper end of the motoring spectrum, pioneered by BMW with MINI, shows this level of choice is now expected by new car buyers at all price points and demanded at the price point of a new 991.
I'm sure if I were in a position to buy a brand new GTS, I'd really enjoy the process of choosing from all the options available. Knowing that the car was built for me, to my exact and probably unique specification to suit how and where I drive would be part of the enjoyment of the purchase.
Of course, there's a chance I'd cock it up and tick the wrong box, but then I'd have to order another one wouldn't I?
I'm sure if I were in a position to buy a brand new GTS, I'd really enjoy the process of choosing from all the options available. Knowing that the car was built for me, to my exact and probably unique specification to suit how and where I drive would be part of the enjoyment of the purchase.
Of course, there's a chance I'd cock it up and tick the wrong box, but then I'd have to order another one wouldn't I?
Excellent write up, raising some excellent points about the huge potential for variety in the way one car feels / handles compared to another of the same model tier in the line up.
Add into that the completely subjective element of personal preference, and this highlights the pinch of salt that most reviews of cars should be given, unless you're happy that the journo or forum poster is a like minded individual to yourself.
Add into that the completely subjective element of personal preference, and this highlights the pinch of salt that most reviews of cars should be given, unless you're happy that the journo or forum poster is a like minded individual to yourself.
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