RE: Porsche not perfect shocker: PH Blog

[WokkaWokka]

I'd have to throw my two cents in. Beef dripping every time Dan or rendered cow as the chap put it in Robin Hoods Bay last time I was there.

[RobM77]

Dr Jezz said:

PhantomPH said:

If I were to order my Porsche and the salesman said, "Do you want active engine mounts and funky suspension?", I would have to reply with, "How the fk should I know?? I've never worked in your engineering or test department!!".

"Well, can I try two cars please? One with and one without and see which I prefer?"
"No Sir - we don't have any to test drive / everyone always ticks the funky suspension box"

At which point you are running the risk of making a very expensive mistake. It would be easy to assume that ticking every box gave you the best possible 911, but the reality is that that is not always the case.

Here's a radical thought - I buy a Porsche that your engineers have decided is the RIGHT set up and has the RIGHT road manners...THAT'S WHAT I'M bd-WELL PAYING YOU £100k+ FOR!!! Then I can choose the colours and the cloth and the stereo...you know...the st that doesn't matter/doesn't assume a knowledge of automotive engineering.

^^^^ This ... just this GLOL

The answer to Phantom's quandary is of course to buy a Lotus Evora instead

[havoc]

RobM77 said:

Dr Jezz said:

PhantomPH said:

If I were to order my Porsche and the salesman said, "Do you want active engine mounts and funky suspension?", I would have to reply with, "How the fk should I know?? I've never worked in your engineering or test department!!".

"Well, can I try two cars please? One with and one without and see which I prefer?"
"No Sir - we don't have any to test drive / everyone always ticks the funky suspension box"

At which point you are running the risk of making a very expensive mistake. It would be easy to assume that ticking every box gave you the best possible 911, but the reality is that that is not always the case.

Here's a radical thought - I buy a Porsche that your engineers have decided is the RIGHT set up and has the RIGHT road manners...THAT'S WHAT I'M bd-WELL PAYING YOU £100k+ FOR!!! Then I can choose the colours and the cloth and the stereo...you know...the st that doesn't matter/doesn't assume a knowledge of automotive engineering.

^^^^ This ... just this GLOL

The answer to Phantom's quandary is of course to buy a Lotus Evora instead

Or a 993!

To me, the sensible core of Phantom's post is probably half of the reason why modern classics are in increasing demand.
(the other half being the 'pull-up' effect of the bloody "investor" :spit: market!)




e.g. - Drove the wife's Golf-R again yesterday, and then my CTR today...the Golf is clearly the more capable and rounded and probably ultimately quicker...but until you thrape it (at very illegal speeds, when it shows it actually is very good fun) it's just too inert / uncommunicative - the CTR today was so much more interactive, precise and responsive even without hitting VTEC-yo! And these are cars at 1/3 of the price-point of a 911...how boring must an optioned-up 911 be at legal speeds???

[ORD]

RobM77 said:

The answer to Phantom's quandary is of course to buy a Lotus Evora instead

But then there are no options:-

Can I have an exciting engine?

Nope - a forced induction Toyota V6.

But the car is at least the newest and best, right?

Um. Nah. Pretty much the same car just re-skinned every few years.

And what about those back seats?

Purely decorative. Even worse than the 911 ones.

Oh. But it's surely very light, what with being a Lotus?

Nah. Despite being glued together and made of old bottle tops, it weighs pretty much the same as the much larger Porsche.

The Evora is an embarrassment, unfortunately.

[braddo]

Housey said:

RobM77 said:

I've been down this road before - I spent a while saving for a Cayman S, went to test drive one and was sorely dissapointed. I posted on PH, and after sifting through the insults, lots of people were saying that I needed PASM and this and that option, so I found a car with those options at another OPC and went and drove that one. It was a bit different and a bit better, but the core essence of the car that left me cold was still leaving me cold. Different cars for different people I guess; I can see why people like them, but they're not for me. I look forward to seeing what you conclude about the GTS

When people got out of my 996 GT3 they were glad they had not died but most swore never to go near it again just in case the WW1 shakes came back, telling me it was undriveable as a road car, how such feedback was "too much". They would then get back in their computer controlled everythings and their smiles would return. As you say, each to their own, no right and wrong when it comes to experience, it's mostly subjective bks from the mouths of idiots like us lot

[braddo]

daytona365 said:

How can a car with most of it's weight in the back be 'perfect' ? Just basic physics, though you've got to hand it to the engineers in making the very best possible of a basically flawed design.

I can't take it anymore.

You are an ignorant, trolling fkwit, what a waste of a username. Go and do some track days and get a clue about car dynamics and driving fun.

Time for some real life experience.

ETA - look into why the weight distribution of the 911 has helped it to punch above its weight for 40 years. (I am not a Porsche fanboy)

Edited by braddo on Tuesday 18th August 23:08

[daytona365]

Owned two lesser powered 911's back in the day, and driven some higher power versions around Silverstone. The merest hint of a shower sends them spinning like a ballerina. Maybe it's me ?

[Dr Jezz]

ORD said:

Pretty much the same car just re-skinned every few years.

And what about those back seats?

Purely decorative.

Obviously destined to go nowhere over time ...

[ORD]

Dr Jezz said:

Obviously destined to go nowhere over time ...

I wondered whether someone would make that point.

Difference is that the 991 (which I don't particularly like, but that's an aside) is a completely new car relative the 997. The Evora is a facelift.

[blueg33]

ORD said:

RobM77 said:

The answer to Phantom's quandary is of course to buy a Lotus Evora instead

But then there are no options:-

Can I have an exciting engine?

Nope - a forced induction Toyota V6.

But the car is at least the newest and best, right?

Um. Nah. Pretty much the same car just re-skinned every few years.

And what about those back seats?

Purely decorative. Even worse than the 911 ones.

Oh. But it's surely very light, what with being a Lotus?

Nah. Despite being glued together and made of old bottle tops, it weighs pretty much the same as the much larger Porsche.

The Evora is an embarrassment, unfortunately.

Have you driven one?

Doubt it.

[ORD]

blueg33 said:

Have you driven one?

Doubt it.

No reason to. It has no market. Why would I want a heavy Lotus? The back seats are pointless, so a 2-seater will always be the better choice.

[wildman0609]

daytona365 said:

Owned two lesser powered 911's back in the day, and driven some higher power versions around Silverstone. The merest hint of a shower sends them spinning like a ballerina. Maybe it's me ?

Its you. With the weight over the driven wheels the 911 is one of the best handling cars around when traction becomes limited. Just watch any multi marque motorsport, when it gets wet the 911s generally win.

[gstev]

Appreciate slightly off topic but ive got Cayenne GTS (V8) and love it, good compromise between sports like car, family car and towing car.

Couldn't tell you HP, torque, 0-60s etc etc, why? I just like the car, the sound, how it drives and think that is all that matters

[chrispj]

highway said:

I still don't like PASM. Ride becomes far too hard for road use. I'd rather have a conventional set up designed to work on the road.

In the spirit of ORD and Ozzie derailing every Lotus thread, I hear that Lotus are still quite good at a conventional suspension set-up...

[blueg33]

ORD said:

blueg33 said:

Have you driven one?

Doubt it.

No reason to. It has no market. Why would I want a heavy Lotus? The back seats are pointless, so a 2-seater will always be the better choice.

How can you rubbish something you haven't driven? FFS open your mind and stop talking unqualified nonsense.

For the record

Base 991 1415kg
Base Evora 400 1395kg
Base 997 1455kg

So Evora is relatively light

Edited by blueg33 on Wednesday 19th August 09:15

[NJH]

daytona365 said:

Owned two lesser powered 911's back in the day, and driven some higher power versions around Silverstone. The merest hint of a shower sends them spinning like a ballerina. Maybe it's me ?

I am not a 911 fan myself but I have to concede as track or race cars the rear engined layout gives tremendous traction in the wet. Its actually the very conditions that gives the 911 an advantage on the front engined and mid engined race cars. Watch any of the thousands of vids on Youtube of em racing over the past 20 odd years to see for yourself just how well they can work in the rain, like this one for example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aI9JAgllIo

Some parts of Silverstone can be basically like an ice rink in the wet, any car on anything other than competition wets will feel very slow in those big wide corners.

[Por911T]

.....having read the article that's why I love my 997.1 GT3 RS ......basic, no fuss, minimal options and pretty simple. The last of the analogue 911's.

[smithyithy]

Por911T said:

.....having read the article that's why I love my 997.1 GT3 RS ......basic, no fuss, minimal options and pretty simple. The last of the analogue 911's.

Isn't the RS 4.0 regarded as the 'swan song' for analogue Porsches? Hence the values being so high for them?

[DonkeyApple]

I'm pleased this topic has finally been raised as it is a big issue.

Put simply, a sports car manufacturer cannot build the 'ultimate driving machine' or whatever, if the final set up that defines how the product works is then left to a random punter who has no real idea in contrast to the engineers within a multi billion GBP professional business.

It's a akin to Monet completing 99% of a picture and then handing a wallpaper brush and bucket of tar to a pissed tramp and instructing him to complete the master peice and make it perfect.

It's done purely for marketing and to muddy the waters. It is not only cynical but makes a mockery of the product.

Companies such as Porsche are already talking about limiting production number to protect their brand. But if they were truly still a professional sports car brand they would have the halls to say 'this is our 911. It is designed and set up by some of the greatest engineers in the industry and it hails from one of the greatest manufacturers. If you actually think you can set out product up better then you are mistaken'.

Fear of being beaten shouldn't lead to the route of mediocrity and compromise but should inspire excellence.

[ORD]

blueg33 said:

How can you rubbish something you haven't driven? FFS open your mind and stop talking unqualified nonsense.

For the record

Base 991 1415kg
Base Evora 400 1395kg
Base 997 1455kg

So Evora is relatively light

Edited by blueg33 on Wednesday 19th August 09:15

Nothing in it at all. The same weight for all intents and purposes.

It is misconceived. It's like asking why I don't test drive an M3 - I don't 'get' the ethos of the car so it wouldn't matter how well it delivered to its weird brief.