RE: Porsche not perfect shocker: PH Blog
Discussion
The second hand car market already is a minefield trying to pick out cars with the right options! I remember buying my 2004 Mini based on it being the facelift, with the Chilli Pack so it had the LSD, it had Bose, it was in the right colour etc etc.
Other hot hatches like the Astra VXR had options of fancy suspension etc.
These options could drastically effect the price too. I remember a fully specced R53 selling for double what a big spec 12 month older car would of sold for.
Other hot hatches like the Astra VXR had options of fancy suspension etc.
These options could drastically effect the price too. I remember a fully specced R53 selling for double what a big spec 12 month older car would of sold for.
ORD said:
RobM77 said:
The answer to Phantom's quandary is of course to buy a Lotus Evora instead
Can I have an exciting engine?
Nope - a forced induction Toyota V6.
But the car is at least the newest and best, right?
Um. Nah. Pretty much the same car just re-skinned every few years.
And what about those back seats?
Purely decorative. Even worse than the 911 ones.
Oh. But it's surely very light, what with being a Lotus?
Nah. Despite being glued together and made of old bottle tops, it weighs pretty much the same as the much larger Porsche.
The Evora is an embarrassment, unfortunately.
1) Lotus do not have the budget of Porsche to develop a bespoke engine and keep re-designing the car every few years. I'll admit that means the Evora looks expensive in the market, but sadly that's a consequence again of the low volume nature of the car. Look at Bristols for comparison! Or even the BAC Mono, which costs double what a Formula Renault does, but with a spaceframe chassis instead of carbon. Low volume but fully EU & US type approved road cars are inevitably going to cost a lot.
2) Yes, one of Lotus' core philosophies is lightness, but it's worth remembering how exceptionally well that Porsche do in that department. Lightness is a core Lotus philosophy, not it's not a monopoly; lighter or equivalent weight cars may exist! The other Lotus core philosophy is class leading ride and handling, and in that sense the Evora not only trumps the Porsche, it punches way beyond its odd CM & CR stats.
Plus, in direct response to some of your points, would you criticise other aluminium cars for being made of "old bottle tops"? It's a superb material to build a car chassis out of and slowly other car manufacturers are moving the same way as Lotus: Audi, and recently Jaguar, but Lotus were there in the mid 90s... The other thing that's far better than the competition is bonding the chassis together, which is a far superior technique to spot welding as it spreads the loads better across the joints.
As for the back seats, just go for a 2+0. I'd never own another 2+2 either - worst of both worlds in my mind and my friends wouldn't stop moaning every time they asked for a lift in mine, despite being told it would be uncomfortable. Yes, the 2+2 setup means that the engine is further back than it would be if it was designed as a 2+0 to start with, but then if they did that people would just call it a rebodied Exige like they did the Europa.
I would strongly recommend that you drive an Evora, preferably back to back with a Cayman or 911. The negative points that you're aware of will of course still be there, but the superiority of the Lotus in terms of driving experience is just so far ahead of Porsche that if I wasn't a Porsche fan I'd say it was amusing.
ORD, you should find something better to do with your time. Your comments about Evora in this thread are plum daft. It's a perfectly viable and efficient sportscar which drives very well. For one reason or another most sportscar buyers around £50-£60k, including myself, choose not to buy it. But that doesn't mean it's no good. Sure, the aesthetics/packaging are "unusual" but some of us do at least drive the darned thing before shopping elsewhere.
Ozzie Osmond said:
ORD, you should find something better to do with your time. Your comments about Evora in this thread are plum daft. It's a perfectly viable and efficient sportscar which drives very well. For one reason or another most sportscar buyers around £50-£60k, including myself, choose not to buy it. But that doesn't mean it's no good. Sure, the aesthetics/packaging are "unusual" but some of us do at least drive the darned thing before shopping elsewhere.
That's kinda my point. Nobody is going to test drive it because is overpriced and doesn't really have a niche. It makes no sense at its price. The market for a relatively heavy 2+2 Lotus with pointless back seats (and they really are - the 911's are useful by comparison) is smaller than tiny.
Rob makes good points as usual.
ORD said:
Ozzie Osmond said:
ORD, you should find something better to do with your time. Your comments about Evora in this thread are plum daft. It's a perfectly viable and efficient sportscar which drives very well. For one reason or another most sportscar buyers around £50-£60k, including myself, choose not to buy it. But that doesn't mean it's no good. Sure, the aesthetics/packaging are "unusual" but some of us do at least drive the darned thing before shopping elsewhere.
That's kinda my point. Nobody is going to test drive it because is overpriced and doesn't really have a niche. It makes no sense at its price. The market for a relatively heavy 2+2 Lotus with pointless back seats (and they really are - the 911's are useful by comparison) is smaller than tiny.
Rob makes good points as usual.
As for the main point of this forum, I agree its difficult with Porsche to ascertain what is the best combination. I really wanted a Cayman GTS, but ended up not buying one. It didn't offer as good a driving experience as the Evora (loved the pdk though), by the time it had a decent spec it was really quite expensive and I still wouldn't know whether I had got the right spec as a drivers car.
Edited by blueg33 on Wednesday 19th August 10:14
ORD said:
But then there are no options:-
Can I have an exciting engine?
Nope - a forced induction Toyota V6.
But the car is at least the newest and best, right?
Um. Nah. Pretty much the same car just re-skinned every few years.
And what about those back seats?
Purely decorative. Even worse than the 911 ones.
Oh. But it's surely very light, what with being a Lotus?
Nah. Despite being glued together and made of old bottle tops, it weighs pretty much the same as the much larger Porsche.
The Evora is an embarrassment, unfortunately.
+1. I agree with you. The Evora cannot be taken seriously by the majority of sports car buyers because of its awkward proportions, lack of a homegrown/bespoke engine and the relative lack of quality to its overall product (although I do accept that the latter has improved significantly over its lifetime).Can I have an exciting engine?
Nope - a forced induction Toyota V6.
But the car is at least the newest and best, right?
Um. Nah. Pretty much the same car just re-skinned every few years.
And what about those back seats?
Purely decorative. Even worse than the 911 ones.
Oh. But it's surely very light, what with being a Lotus?
Nah. Despite being glued together and made of old bottle tops, it weighs pretty much the same as the much larger Porsche.
The Evora is an embarrassment, unfortunately.
I think TVR acknowledged this when deciding to build the next generation of sports cars, hence the strong Cosworth modifications due to be implemented onto its crate engine, (to date the source of this crate engine is not known)good design and use of up to date technologies in partnership with Gordon Murray.
Lotus does have access to huge finances. It comes down to persuading its parent company to give it.
As regards Porsche, not keen on them myself for some of the reasons already expressed here. I imagine I would not think twice about selling them on, as I just don't think the majority of the range are special.
I would only seriously consider the 2.0 ltr S, ST, the more recent RS and up to 997.2 GT3 versions of the 911 as a potential buy.
Edited by chelme on Wednesday 19th August 10:25
I think the problem with the Evora is lack of visibility to the market. Limited advertising and no big shiny dealerships in high profile locations.
As for looks, all things are subjective, suffice to say that many more people comment positively on the Evora in the flesh than they have on any Porsche I have driven.
As for looks, all things are subjective, suffice to say that many more people comment positively on the Evora in the flesh than they have on any Porsche I have driven.
chelme said:
+1. I agree with you. The Evora cannot be taken seriously by the majority of sports car buyers because of its... ...lack of a homegrown/bespoke engine
I presume you've dismissed Xenos, BAC, Elemental etc for using a 2 liter Ecoboost or any car out there using a crate Chevy LS? Will Aston drop off your radar once they put their first Mercedes engine in a DB11? Should Morgan make their own engines rather than buy in Ford and BMW motors? I think you're putting your own prejudice there and you're just being snobbish that there's a Toyota logo on the Lotus engine.Thanks ORD.
I think ORD does make a good point, in that on paper the Evora doesn't tempt people to test drive it. If people would only just drive the thing then they'd realise that there's more to a sports car than showing off or something that goes fast in a straight line. However, I still think that the majority of people aren't interested in the tactility of driving, moreso showing off and the feeling of going quickly and, as patronising (and perhaps plain wrong) as this may sound it's not my words but that of a Porsche owning colleague and none other than Anthony Reid the other day: constantly challenging themselves to reach the sky high limits of their car. Weird, but evidently true. For that small percentage that are left, the Evora's tactile pleasures are easily twice if not three times better than a Porsche, and even if that tiny percentage bought Evoras, they'd still double Lotus' profits. Test drives are the key.
I think ORD does make a good point, in that on paper the Evora doesn't tempt people to test drive it. If people would only just drive the thing then they'd realise that there's more to a sports car than showing off or something that goes fast in a straight line. However, I still think that the majority of people aren't interested in the tactility of driving, moreso showing off and the feeling of going quickly and, as patronising (and perhaps plain wrong) as this may sound it's not my words but that of a Porsche owning colleague and none other than Anthony Reid the other day: constantly challenging themselves to reach the sky high limits of their car. Weird, but evidently true. For that small percentage that are left, the Evora's tactile pleasures are easily twice if not three times better than a Porsche, and even if that tiny percentage bought Evoras, they'd still double Lotus' profits. Test drives are the key.
RobM77 said:
Housey said:
RobM77 said:
I've been down this road before - I spent a while saving for a Cayman S, went to test drive one and was sorely dissapointed. I posted on PH, and after sifting through the insults, lots of people were saying that I needed PASM and this and that option, so I found a car with those options at another OPC and went and drove that one. It was a bit different and a bit better, but the core essence of the car that left me cold was still leaving me cold. Different cars for different people I guess; I can see why people like them, but they're not for me. I look forward to seeing what you conclude about the GTS
When people got out of my 996 GT3 they were glad they had not died but most swore never to go near it again just in case the WW1 shakes came back, telling me it was undriveable as a road car, how such feedback was "too much". They would then get back in their computer controlled everythings and their smiles would return. As you say, each to their own, no right and wrong when it comes to experience, it's mostly subjective b
ks from the mouths of idiots like us lot It was the lack of feedback and involvement that left me cold about the Cayman, and I've often hoped that the GTn models would be more to my taste. Straight after those two test drives I looked at getting a 996 GT3 mk1 for about £40k - shame I didn't! Two different points of view, both posters recognising that theirs is only an opinion, and acknowledging the legitimacy of the other's opinion.
I don't come on PH for this crap. I can sit at home and agree with Mrs. Nailedon if I want harmony.
What ever happened to the 3 pages before the Nazi accusation?
NailedOn said:
RobM77 said:
Housey said:
RobM77 said:
I've been down this road before - I spent a while saving for a Cayman S, went to test drive one and was sorely dissapointed. I posted on PH, and after sifting through the insults, lots of people were saying that I needed PASM and this and that option, so I found a car with those options at another OPC and went and drove that one. It was a bit different and a bit better, but the core essence of the car that left me cold was still leaving me cold. Different cars for different people I guess; I can see why people like them, but they're not for me. I look forward to seeing what you conclude about the GTS
When people got out of my 996 GT3 they were glad they had not died but most swore never to go near it again just in case the WW1 shakes came back, telling me it was undriveable as a road car, how such feedback was "too much". They would then get back in their computer controlled everythings and their smiles would return. As you say, each to their own, no right and wrong when it comes to experience, it's mostly subjective bks from the mouths of idiots like us lot It was the lack of feedback and involvement that left me cold about the Cayman, and I've often hoped that the GTn models would be more to my taste. Straight after those two test drives I looked at getting a 996 GT3 mk1 for about £40k - shame I didn't! Two different points of view, both posters recognising that theirs is only an opinion, and acknowledging the legitimacy of the other's opinion.
I don't come on PH for this crap. I can sit at home and agree with Mrs. Nailedon if I want harmony.
What ever happened to the 3 pages before the Nazi accusation?
In fairness though I was referring to Porsche's standard models, the Cayman, 997 etc and Housey was referring to the 996 GT3. I haven't driven a GT3, but I assume that they're a lot better for driver involvement than the standard cars.
blueg33 said:
ORD said:
Ozzie Osmond said:
ORD, you should find something better to do with your time. Your comments about Evora in this thread are plum daft. It's a perfectly viable and efficient sportscar which drives very well. For one reason or another most sportscar buyers around £50-£60k, including myself, choose not to buy it. But that doesn't mean it's no good. Sure, the aesthetics/packaging are "unusual" but some of us do at least drive the darned thing before shopping elsewhere.
That's kinda my point. Nobody is going to test drive it because is overpriced and doesn't really have a niche. It makes no sense at its price. The market for a relatively heavy 2+2 Lotus with pointless back seats (and they really are - the 911's are useful by comparison) is smaller than tiny.
Rob makes good points as usual.
As for the main point of this forum, I agree its difficult with Porsche to ascertain what is the best combination. I really wanted a Cayman GTS, but ended up not buying one. It didn't offer as good a driving experience as the Evora (loved the pdk though), by the time it had a decent spec it was really quite expensive and I still wouldn't know whether I had got the right spec as a drivers car.
Edited by blueg33 on Wednesday 19th August 10:14
It looks cheaper than the price they are asking but the reality is that for what you get it is an exceedingly cheap car.
I genuinely believe that if they gave it the right body shape then people would be screaming out about how rediculoisly cheap it was at £70k.
Personally, I think the Exige is an example of getting this aspect correct. The list price of that car matches it's looks and as for the whole package, well it's a bargain.
We live in an extremely visual and perception based market place and this is the element that Lotus has failed on. They themselves have compounded this by essentially marketing themselves as the 'cheap' alternative. No one on this planet wants cheap. They want expensibe at a cheap price. We only need to look at all other consumer sectors to see this complete facade in action.
My recent (and first) experience of buying a Porsche:
Place 5% deposit
Dealer organises 1.5 hours trial of cars with the options you are undecided on at PCE. (PDK/Manual, seats for me).
'Instructor' at PCE asks what you want from your time there, does all he can to make sure you experience the differing aspects you explain, not a hint of sales talk the whole time.
Dealer advises build slot available and you lock your spec. and pay another 5%, now non-refundable.
Another invite for a half day at PCE, with breakfast and very nice lunch for you and a partner. Spend 4 hours in a car as close to your spec. as possible learning about it's handling, braking, skid control, launch control etc.
Car arrives exactly on time, to the day, with the dealer keeping me informed the whole way, exactly as per the spec. ordered and not a mark on the car. (This has not been the case with other German marques for me).
I know most will say you are paying for this, and that's obviously true but when spending what for me was a once in a lifetime amount on a car it was a very pleasant introduction and smoothed the process of selecting what options suited me.
The salesman at the dealership said he always does everything possible to get customers to try cars at the PCE, not other dealers. That way he knows that they will not get told lots of BS or get put in the wrong car with another salesman trying to influence them.
The chap at PCE told me that the unit at Silverstone has been such a success they are building them across other markets now.
-No I don't work for Porsche, and I expect it'll break down on the way home now-
Place 5% deposit
Dealer organises 1.5 hours trial of cars with the options you are undecided on at PCE. (PDK/Manual, seats for me).
'Instructor' at PCE asks what you want from your time there, does all he can to make sure you experience the differing aspects you explain, not a hint of sales talk the whole time.
Dealer advises build slot available and you lock your spec. and pay another 5%, now non-refundable.
Another invite for a half day at PCE, with breakfast and very nice lunch for you and a partner. Spend 4 hours in a car as close to your spec. as possible learning about it's handling, braking, skid control, launch control etc.
Car arrives exactly on time, to the day, with the dealer keeping me informed the whole way, exactly as per the spec. ordered and not a mark on the car. (This has not been the case with other German marques for me).
I know most will say you are paying for this, and that's obviously true but when spending what for me was a once in a lifetime amount on a car it was a very pleasant introduction and smoothed the process of selecting what options suited me.
The salesman at the dealership said he always does everything possible to get customers to try cars at the PCE, not other dealers. That way he knows that they will not get told lots of BS or get put in the wrong car with another salesman trying to influence them.
The chap at PCE told me that the unit at Silverstone has been such a success they are building them across other markets now.
-No I don't work for Porsche, and I expect it'll break down on the way home now-
Edited by robj4 on Wednesday 19th August 11:34
DonkeyApple said:
blueg33 said:
ORD said:
Ozzie Osmond said:
ORD, you should find something better to do with your time. Your comments about Evora in this thread are plum daft. It's a perfectly viable and efficient sportscar which drives very well. For one reason or another most sportscar buyers around £50-£60k, including myself, choose not to buy it. But that doesn't mean it's no good. Sure, the aesthetics/packaging are "unusual" but some of us do at least drive the darned thing before shopping elsewhere.
That's kinda my point. Nobody is going to test drive it because is overpriced and doesn't really have a niche. It makes no sense at its price. The market for a relatively heavy 2+2 Lotus with pointless back seats (and they really are - the 911's are useful by comparison) is smaller than tiny.
Rob makes good points as usual.
As for the main point of this forum, I agree its difficult with Porsche to ascertain what is the best combination. I really wanted a Cayman GTS, but ended up not buying one. It didn't offer as good a driving experience as the Evora (loved the pdk though), by the time it had a decent spec it was really quite expensive and I still wouldn't know whether I had got the right spec as a drivers car.
Edited by blueg33 on Wednesday 19th August 10:14
It looks cheaper than the price they are asking but the reality is that for what you get it is an exceedingly cheap car.
I genuinely believe that if they gave it the right body shape then people would be screaming out about how rediculoisly cheap it was at £70k.
Personally, I think the Exige is an example of getting this aspect correct. The list price of that car matches it's looks and as for the whole package, well it's a bargain.
We live in an extremely visual and perception based market place and this is the element that Lotus has failed on. They themselves have compounded this by essentially marketing themselves as the 'cheap' alternative. No one on this planet wants cheap. They want expensibe at a cheap price. We only need to look at all other consumer sectors to see this complete facade in action.
The discussion about engines is bizarre when you think about it. The very reason why boxsters are so cheap and until recently the 996, was because everyone believed the cars are very expensive to run and maintain + the minority of car enthusiasts seemed pretty well informed that there are some significant weaknesses with those engines. Meanwhile the Toyota engined Lotus's have rock solid residuals and if its the more simple elise/exige cars a rep for reasonable running costs. This all turns on its head somewhat the blx spouted on the net about who is and who isn't a quality car manufacturer, I can still remember back in 2000 seeing a then only 18 month old 996 with rusted door latches and a couple of years later many stories of that era of cars with rotted out rads etc. Yet the cars way back which were built to massive engineering margins had huge panel gaps, interiors which would fall apart all over the place, simply unacceptable "quality" by modern standards but those cars could take a beating like nothing else ever made by anyone. When people talk about quality in these discussions I can only conclude they are really only talking about perception, and that perception is based entirely on brand image.
Spot on, yes. Most people, both on PH and out there in the rest of the world, buy things largely on brand image. If they didn't then the ratios of cars on the roads would probably be quite different and Lotus would undoubtedly do a lot better.There is one other thing though that you didn't mention that helps residuals, and that's rarity, which applies to the Evora but not the Cayman.
I think another thing with the Porsche/Lotus debate is that Porsche offer the whole package (in many peoples eyes) of looks, perceived quality, brand/badge, driving dynamics, usability, noise etc.
To me as a lifelong petrolhead, Lotus offer some, but not all of these & I would not personally consider an Evora.
To me as a lifelong petrolhead, Lotus offer some, but not all of these & I would not personally consider an Evora.
LordHaveMurci said:
I think another thing with the Porsche/Lotus debate is that Porsche offer the whole package (in many peoples eyes) of looks, perceived quality, brand/badge, driving dynamics, usability, noise etc.
To me as a lifelong petrolhead, Lotus offer some, but not all of these & I would not personally consider an Evora.
To me as a lifelong petrolhead, Lotus offer some, but not all of these & I would not personally consider an Evora.
Lotus had the potential to be be as attractive a marque as Porsche. Porsche: good product, good marketing.
Lotus: Good product, poor marketing - in loose terms.
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