Discussion
Ares said:
Have you driven the M4 DCT and manual? On track? What you are saying doesn't make sense if you have. I can't see a single reason to chose the manual over DCT on track - the notion of 'matching revs' and 'engaging clutch' might make a s
t car on a shot road a little more enjoyable, but it will make a track experience far worse. IMO.
In the M4 I would argue it increases the involvement and increases the experience, on track at least.
Having used the DCT, then climbed into a manual, I couldn't wait to get back in the DCT. The DCT is infinitely more fun. Clutch peddles are becoming redundant for everything other than wistful memories of yore. It's a bit like preferring manual window winders so that you feel connected to the car.
I've driven an M4 DCT on the road and previous gen M3's, DCT and manual on track. The DCT on the road is nice for traffic, crap when you want to have fun (IMO). The M3 DCT on track did make a bit more sense, it was a different experience in that it removed much of the brain power required to think about changing gear so that you could concentrate on other things but I still preferred the manual as it was more interactive which meant I had more to do and more to learn. I will admit I was probably a second or two off the pace in the manual but who cares as I'm not getting paid to win races. t car on a shot road a little more enjoyable, but it will make a track experience far worse. IMO. In the M4 I would argue it increases the involvement and increases the experience, on track at least.
Having used the DCT, then climbed into a manual, I couldn't wait to get back in the DCT. The DCT is infinitely more fun. Clutch peddles are becoming redundant for everything other than wistful memories of yore. It's a bit like preferring manual window winders so that you feel connected to the car.
Comparing it to wind up windows is not a good comparison. Opening or closing a window is a function I derive no pleasure from so the more automated the better whereas I do enjoy changing gears. I've tried all 3 manual, auto and DCT extensively over the last few years. I thought I would love DCT as it seemed to offer the best of both worlds, unfortunately it doesn't, it's just a quicker\smoother auto with a few tricks up it's sleeve. For commuting or carting family\stuff around I don't see why you'd choose anything else but for having fun it just hasn't measured up, if that makes me wistful then so be it.
Guvernator said:
I thought I would love DCT as it seemed to offer the best of both worlds, unfortunately it doesn't, it's just a quicker\smoother auto with a few tricks up it's sleeve. For commuting or carting family\stuff around I don't see why you'd choose anything else but for having fun it just hasn't measured up, if that makes me wistful then so be it.
"it's just a quicker\smoother auto with a few tricks up it's sleeve". It totally isn't, especially on track. It isn't smoother than an auto for a start, but above that, it is a manual. You still have to decide when/how to change gear. Set the right gear for the corner and braking point, live with the drop in performance if you chose the wrong gear. The carting the family around piece - the only real pull is that it mirrors a full auto. It's the fun piece that it really wins in. Keep two hands on the wheel (and one a left foot planted on the rest) gives, more me, far greater involvement/feel/control over having a hand on a gear-stick and a foot hovering over a clutch.
The ultimate example of this was driving two R8s. The manual V8 didn't get touched beyond the first hour - everyone opted for the DCT (XXX-tronic what ever it was called. In comparison, the manual was just horrid.
Ares said:
"it's just a quicker\smoother auto with a few tricks up it's sleeve".
It totally isn't, especially on track. It isn't smoother than an auto for a start, but above that, it is a manual. You still have to decide when/how to change gear. Set the right gear for the corner and braking point, live with the drop in performance if you chose the wrong gear. The carting the family around piece - the only real pull is that it mirrors a full auto. It's the fun piece that it really wins in. Keep two hands on the wheel (and one a left foot planted on the rest) gives, more me, far greater involvement/feel/control over having a hand on a gear-stick and a foot hovering over a clutch.
The ultimate example of this was driving two R8s. The manual V8 didn't get touched beyond the first hour - everyone opted for the DCT (XXX-tronic what ever it was called. In comparison, the manual was just horrid.
Horses for courses I guess, I know some people love DCT, my M4 owning friend thinks it's brilliant and makes him think he is an F1 star. The one in my car is also perfect for 90% of the time when I am pottering about. I also much prefer them to normal torque converter automatics. It totally isn't, especially on track. It isn't smoother than an auto for a start, but above that, it is a manual. You still have to decide when/how to change gear. Set the right gear for the corner and braking point, live with the drop in performance if you chose the wrong gear. The carting the family around piece - the only real pull is that it mirrors a full auto. It's the fun piece that it really wins in. Keep two hands on the wheel (and one a left foot planted on the rest) gives, more me, far greater involvement/feel/control over having a hand on a gear-stick and a foot hovering over a clutch.
The ultimate example of this was driving two R8s. The manual V8 didn't get touched beyond the first hour - everyone opted for the DCT (XXX-tronic what ever it was called. In comparison, the manual was just horrid.
However there is something that connects me on a fundamental level to driving a manual which a DCT just hasn't been able to replicate. Try something like an S2000 or clacking through the open gate of a Ferrari 355 to see what I mean. Like I said I'm not one of these people that thinks technology is the devils work in cars, I love all the toys, it's just that DCT hasn't convinced me YET. They are almost TOO good\easy which in modern cars often leaves me bored and looking for something to do other than hang on while waiting for the next corner to arrive.
Funny you should mention the R8 too, I got a go in a V10 Spyder (with DCT) a few months ago through a friend who owns a Supercar hire business and despite the fact that I was driving a 500bhp+ V10, it felt very "safe" and too easy to drive which I know some people love but it didn't really give me that supercar feeling of "it's going to rip my head off if I'm not careful". Personally I think that's a key ingredient in a supercar and a lot of that was down to how easy the gearbox made it to go ludicrously quick. Did sound fantastic with the roof down though.
I'm also completely torn between the DCT and manual on an upcoming car..I wish it was a completely clear cut decision, at least for me( as it is for some) but the line from Dan about the car being better integrated with the DCT and from other reviews online makes me wonder if the manual, as fun as it undoubtably is, is holding back the potential of the car. not the fractions of seconds in acceleration necessarily, but as a whole..
Now what they should make is a three pedal manual that also has paddles!
Now what they should make is a three pedal manual that also has paddles!
Guvernator said:
Ares said:
"it's just a quicker\smoother auto with a few tricks up it's sleeve".
It totally isn't, especially on track. It isn't smoother than an auto for a start, but above that, it is a manual. You still have to decide when/how to change gear. Set the right gear for the corner and braking point, live with the drop in performance if you chose the wrong gear. The carting the family around piece - the only real pull is that it mirrors a full auto. It's the fun piece that it really wins in. Keep two hands on the wheel (and one a left foot planted on the rest) gives, more me, far greater involvement/feel/control over having a hand on a gear-stick and a foot hovering over a clutch.
The ultimate example of this was driving two R8s. The manual V8 didn't get touched beyond the first hour - everyone opted for the DCT (XXX-tronic what ever it was called. In comparison, the manual was just horrid.
Horses for courses I guess, I know some people love DCT, my M4 owning friend thinks it's brilliant and makes him think he is an F1 star. The one in my car is also perfect for 90% of the time when I am pottering about. I also much prefer them to normal torque converter automatics. It totally isn't, especially on track. It isn't smoother than an auto for a start, but above that, it is a manual. You still have to decide when/how to change gear. Set the right gear for the corner and braking point, live with the drop in performance if you chose the wrong gear. The carting the family around piece - the only real pull is that it mirrors a full auto. It's the fun piece that it really wins in. Keep two hands on the wheel (and one a left foot planted on the rest) gives, more me, far greater involvement/feel/control over having a hand on a gear-stick and a foot hovering over a clutch.
The ultimate example of this was driving two R8s. The manual V8 didn't get touched beyond the first hour - everyone opted for the DCT (XXX-tronic what ever it was called. In comparison, the manual was just horrid.
However there is something that connects me on a fundamental level to driving a manual which a DCT just hasn't been able to replicate. Try something like an S2000 or clacking through the open gate of a Ferrari 355 to see what I mean. Like I said I'm not one of these people that thinks technology is the devils work in cars, I love all the toys, it's just that DCT hasn't convinced me YET. They are almost TOO good\easy which in modern cars often leaves me bored and looking for something to do other than hang on while waiting for the next corner to arrive.
Funny you should mention the R8 too, I got a go in a V10 Spyder (with DCT) a few months ago through a friend who owns a Supercar hire business and despite the fact that I was driving a 500bhp+ V10, it felt very "safe" and too easy to drive which I know some people love but it didn't really give me that supercar feeling of "it's going to rip my head off if I'm not careful". Personally I think that's a key ingredient in a supercar and a lot of that was down to how easy the gearbox made it to go ludicrously quick. Did sound fantastic with the roof down though.
When it comes to a true fast car - the manual, for me, can remove the experience. Take the R8 with its mock-ferrari-esuqe open gate. It's so difficult to grab a new gear when pushing on, it robs you of the experience. Gear-changes at times become slow and ponderous. 2nd to 3rd in particular on that car, although I can only guess it had a poor synchromesh, bad for a 4 month on car.
fourscore said:
I'm also completely torn between the DCT and manual on an upcoming car..I wish it was a completely clear cut decision, at least for me( as it is for some) but the line from Dan about the car being better integrated with the DCT and from other reviews online makes me wonder if the manual, as fun as it undoubtably is, is holding back the potential of the car. not the fractions of seconds in acceleration necessarily, but as a whole..
Now what they should make is a three pedal manual that also has paddles!
Thats the conclusion we came to driving M4 DCT and Manual back-to-back.Now what they should make is a three pedal manual that also has paddles!
RossP said:
I'm with Guvernator on this. That's why my M4 (which is due in 3 weeks) will be coming with three pedals 
Love it and chuffed you have gone for the three pedal version...leave all the other fashion conscious flappy paddle lovers to it and relish actually being able to drive the car rather than just pushing the throttle and flicking a paddle!
Enjoy picking it up.
Guvernator said:
RossP said:
I'm with Guvernator on this. That's why my M4 (which is due in 3 weeks) will be coming with three pedals
I think it will be great and probably quite rare. Just out of interest, did you get any sales pressure to go DCT?me: "I'll be ordering it with the manual gearbox"
salesman: "You don't want the manual gearbox. Think about the residuals."
me: "I do want a manual gearbox. I'm speccing the car for ME!"
cerb4.5lee said:
RossP said:
I'm with Guvernator on this. That's why my M4 (which is due in 3 weeks) will be coming with three pedals
Love it and chuffed you have gone for the three pedal version...leave all the other fashion conscious flappy paddle lovers to it and relish actually being able to drive the car rather than just pushing the throttle and flicking a paddle!
Enjoy picking it up.
RossP said:
The conversation went a bit like this:
me: "I'll be ordering it with the manual gearbox"
salesman: "You don't want the manual gearbox. Think about the residuals."
me: "I do want a manual gearbox. I'm speccing the car for ME!"
Yep have had exactly the same spiel from salemen previously. I don't think the residuals will be effected either. As stated manual cars will be very rare and as we know for some it just has to be a manual. You may take longer to move it on but I doubt you'll loose much if anything over a DCT.me: "I'll be ordering it with the manual gearbox"
salesman: "You don't want the manual gearbox. Think about the residuals."
me: "I do want a manual gearbox. I'm speccing the car for ME!"
Well I've said this before... But I do intend to keep this car for a few years so shouldn't really be an issue.
I would have bought a used or pre-reg but couldn't find a manual with the HK Audio (there were only a couple of manuals about). That was a must as I constantly kicked myself for buying my E92 M3 with the std (crap) system.
I would have bought a used or pre-reg but couldn't find a manual with the HK Audio (there were only a couple of manuals about). That was a must as I constantly kicked myself for buying my E92 M3 with the std (crap) system.
I must admit I can't see the point of a manual in a car like this. When one gear will more or less wheelspin you up to the motorway speed limit what is the point of being able to change manually through the rest of them? The whole car is designed purely for speed not real world enjoyment and DCT is simply better at going quickly. I insist on a manual in a sports car but this is a big barge with a hyperspace drive under the bonnet so for me should definitely be an auto.
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