RE: Mercedes-AMG C63 Coupe - official!
Discussion
kambites said:
Ares said:
Indeed. BMW quotes sub-1500kg for the M3/M4. 20% is a lot of lard to carry around.....hence why the M4 is beating even the C63 S on circuit tests.
BMW quote 1612kg EU (which is the measure quoted here) for the M4 DCT. Still a big difference, but not quite that big. 
Edit to add.... BMW quite with fuel but not driver. 1572 for std, and the 1612 you mention for the DCT. Still a 200kg+ difference with the AMG (Non-DCT slush autobox only?)
Edited by Ares on Thursday 20th August 11:41
Ares said:
Edit to add.... BMW quite with fuel but not driver. 1572 for std, and the 1612 you mention for the DCT. Still a 200kg+ difference with the AMG (Non-DCT slush autobox only?)
I think it's only fair to compare it to the DCT, since both are automatics; so 173kg comparing roughly like for like. Still a good too average passengers' worth of weight; or 10% of the overall weight of the vehicle.ETA: The curious thing is that the Merc two-door weighs more than its saloon counterpart where the BMW is lighter. The difference between the two four-door saloons is only 80kg (which is pretty insignificant on a car which weighs closer to two tonnes than one).
Edited by kambites on Thursday 20th August 11:50
kambites said:
Ares said:
Edit to add.... BMW quite with fuel but not driver. 1572 for std, and the 1612 you mention for the DCT. Still a 200kg+ difference with the AMG (Non-DCT slush autobox only?)
I think it's only fair to compare it to the DCT, since both are automatics; so 173kg comparing roughly like for like. Still a good too average passengers' worth of weight; or 10% of the overall weight of the vehicle.ETA: The curious thing is that the Merc two-door weighs more than its saloon counterpart where the BMW is lighter. The difference between the two four-door saloons is only 80kg (which is pretty insignificant on a car which weighs closer to two tonnes than one).
Edited by kambites on Thursday 20th August 11:50
Std to std that's still 200kg. DCT to std still north of 150kg difference....still 10%!
Ares said:
still 10%!
Indeed, it's certainly significant... but then AMGs have always been heavier than M-cars, both in terms of actual weights and in terms of how they feel. I doubt a 10% different in weight is any higher than it's been historically. They're both enormously heavy vehicles but given that they aren't meant to be sports cars, that's not necessarily a bad thing. kambites said:
Ares said:
still 10%!
Indeed, it's certainly significant... but then AMGs have always been heavier than M-cars, both in terms of actual weights and in terms of how they feel. I doubt a 10% different in weight is any higher than it's been historically. They're both enormously heavy vehicles but given that they aren't meant to be sports cars, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Ares said:
True, but with coupe difference now being 20%...same with the Audi Vs BMW, thats a lot. Advantage BMW.
Not sure where you're getting 20% from. For the ever shrinking proportion of people who opt for a manual BMW (who presumably wouldn't be interested in the Merc anyway) it's 14%; for everyone else it's 11%. ETA: Of course that's assuming we actually believe the manufacturers' figures. C&D weighed a DCT M4 (with carbon ceramics which presumably cut the weight from standard a bit) and it came in at 1640kg without a driver which would be over 1700kg EU. Who knows how optimistic Mercedes have been about the C-class's weight.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 20th August 12:23
Ares said:
Sorry. Back of fag packet based on the 1500kg. But 15% with passenger is still a f
k lot.
It's a fair chunk, but pretty irrelevant because I don't believe the AMG is attempting to compete with the manual M4. 11% is also fairly significant, mind. Ultimately reducing weight is a means to an end rather than an end in itself; how they drive will be what matters and I suspect we can already guess that from past performances. k lot.Edited by kambites on Thursday 20th August 12:28
Pesty said:
Yes lighter is better but ultimately does it really matter if it drives and handles well?
It's not an out and out track car. If it drives as well an an m4 who really gives a crap.
Yes. 200kg is a hell of a lot and will make a big difference to how it handles. For 2l diesels, the benefit is almost solely down to economy. For pinnacle sports saloons/coupe, weight is possibly the most defining characteristic. It's not an out and out track car. If it drives as well an an m4 who really gives a crap.
Why do you think a 1.9gti still hold a handling candle to almost every hot-hatch since? Because it weight f
k-all compared to the 1500kg+ 'hot hatches' you get now.More weight means it needs more power and bigger brakes, and uses more fuel, which brings bigger fuel tanks...etc etc.
My old Caterham had c160bhp yet there was very little that could keep up with it on the road or track. Because it weighed 370kg.
Weight is pretty much of everything.
You completely missed my point.
According to you we should all drive ariel atoms because weight is everything. You have
Not driven this back to back with an m4 so don't write it off yet
Even if it's more of a GT car so what if it's fun to drive and a bpnice place to be. Different cars for different reasons.
Heavy cars can still be good.
According to you we should all drive ariel atoms because weight is everything. You have
Not driven this back to back with an m4 so don't write it off yet
Even if it's more of a GT car so what if it's fun to drive and a bpnice place to be. Different cars for different reasons.
Heavy cars can still be good.
Pesty said:
You completely missed my point.
According to you we should all drive ariel atoms because weight is everything. You have
Not driven this back to back with an m4 so don't write it off yet
Even if it's more of a GT car so what if it's fun to drive and a bpnice place to be. Different cars for different reasons.
Heavy cars can still be good.
True, but like for like/everything else being equal, a 200kg lighter car will be better. Weight is never a good thing. According to you we should all drive ariel atoms because weight is everything. You have
Not driven this back to back with an m4 so don't write it off yet
Even if it's more of a GT car so what if it's fun to drive and a bpnice place to be. Different cars for different reasons.
Heavy cars can still be good.
....and the C63S isn't pitched as a GT car....it's a direct competitor to the M4. It's a real shame they got lazy and didn't do a BMW with weight saving.
Ares said:
....and the C63S isn't pitched as a GT car...
No, it's pitched as a fast executive saloon just like the M4. It doesn't need to handle as well as a good GT. Of course less weight is better, all things being equal. But all things are rarely equal, lets wait until we actually get to drive the thing (or at least someone does) before making assumptions about the handling relative to the M4. I'm sure we can all guess at what the results will be but we might be wrong.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 20th August 13:32
Ares said:
True, but like for like/everything else being equal, a 200kg lighter car will be better. Weight is never a good thing.
....and the C63S isn't pitched as a GT car....it's a direct competitor to the M4. It's a real shame they got lazy and didn't do a BMW with weight saving.
All things being equal yes.....and the C63S isn't pitched as a GT car....it's a direct competitor to the M4. It's a real shame they got lazy and didn't do a BMW with weight saving.
It still may be an epic car to drive in which case it wouldn't matter to me.
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