RE: Toyota sells eight million hybrids
Discussion
kambites said:
I think the huge majority of hybrids these days are just a drive-train option in a "normal car"; it just tends to sit somewhere near the middle of the range rather than at the bottom.
There's certainly a C-class hybrid even if there's no 3-series.
Funnily enough I just started a conversation about this in the office and one guy has ordered a hybrid C-Class diesel which I wasn't even aware of being available.There's certainly a C-class hybrid even if there's no 3-series.
Edited by kambites on Friday 21st August 14:49
kambites said:
I'd rather have a hybrid than a diesel.
This, and that's exactly what I intend next year. I'll probably not see another year out of my XJ8 and I need a car for getting to work that isn't going to cost the Earth to run. It doesn't need to be exciting, but I don't want a rattling diesel. I find the hybrid technology quite interesting, and the cars themselves quite interesting. My commute going from rural B roads to D/C and then into a town centre, and the only choke point I really experience in a car is working days when I'm leaving the town, as there is a lot of trundling at 20/30mph then. Sounds like a hybrid would be ideal. I'll be looking mainly at the Prius, mkII Insight and the Civic Hybrid.It's not that I've given up on performance cars, but I have a Daytona T595 to ride which is outrageously good fun - I'd have to spend a lot of money to find anything nearly as good on four wheels!
TNH said:
I wouldn't mind driving a hybrid, its the fact that they all look bloody stupid in comparison to "normal" cars. If BMW (or anyone else) did an affordable hybrid 3er (ie comparable to a 320d) then I would rather drive the hybrid.
pop into Lexus my friend, the IS300H is aimed squarely at the 320Dfatboy b said:
If you add together the total production / usage / end of life costs, both in terms of ££ and greeness, they are no better than a conventional car. The only use they can have is to reduce exhaust pipe emissions (temporarily) in big cities. Once they are on the open road, they are pointless, and often use more fuel than a conventional non-hybrid car. They are heavier than a non-hybrid version, as you have cart around 2 engines and 2 power sources. They are also more than a tad dangerous is a collision if you unfortunately have to be cut out of the wreckage. Jump-starting one isn't without its hazards.
Toyota have made considerable efforts in the years that the hybrids have been around to reduce these costs , most reports claiming otherwise are produced by rival manufacturers who have made little effort do reduce the whole life impact of their productsWe went from a 170hp VW diesel to a Prius , its much, much cheaper to run delivering a steady 55-56 mpg average whereas our diesel gave us 42-44mpg average, it IS cleaner all the time and very clean in cities and that's where people live after all, ie the opposite of a diesel
Our "T Spirit" model has a mass in service of 1460kgs which is lighter than my Skoda Octavia, the model tested by NCAP where the car got its 5 star rating was 1420kgs , hardly a porker by today's standards
The battery for the engine is in the boot and a conventional 12v car battery , no drama at all jump starting it , you cannot BUMP start the the car is that's what you meant.
Of course our Prius is the wifes car and in all honesty I'm not a fan , I like something with a bit more pace but the Prius is very nice to drive, well equipped and generally a nice place to be , its nowhere near as slow as many people think and can get to 60 in less than 10 seconds if needs be but it thoroughly unrewarding to drive like that.
Its a sensible family car and the truth is there are rather good and that's why they sell so many.
Of course those less informed always like a whipping boy and the Prius is the latest one.
As for a BMW driver slating Prius owners , LOL like they have a reputation to be proud of !
TNH said:
Funnily enough I just started a conversation about this in the office and one guy has ordered a hybrid C-Class diesel which I wasn't even aware of being available.
there is (was?) a 3 series hybrid-badged active hybrid, it used an electric motor to assist a straight 6 turbo engine http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2013-bmw-activ...
i am not sure if it was realised in the UK?
Itsallicanafford said:
there is (was?) a 3 series hybrid-badged active hybrid, it used an electric motor to assist a straight 6 turbo engine
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2013-bmw-activ...
i am not sure if it was realised in the UK?
I'm sure it was around £45k though which is £15k more than a well specced 320d...http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2013-bmw-activ...
i am not sure if it was realised in the UK?
fatboy b said:
If you add together the total production / usage / end of life costs, both in terms of ££ and greeness, they are no better than a conventional car. The only use they can have is to reduce exhaust pipe emissions (temporarily) in big cities. Once they are on the open road, they are pointless, and often use more fuel than a conventional non-hybrid car. They are heavier than a non-hybrid version, as you have cart around 2 engines and 2 power sources. They are also more than a tad dangerous is a collision if you unfortunately have to be cut out of the wreckage. Jump-starting one isn't without its hazards.
^^^^ B*LL*CKS of the highest "google-based-not-actually-facts" nature.Baryonyx said:
This, and that's exactly what I intend next year. I'll probably not see another year out of my XJ8 and I need a car for getting to work that isn't going to cost the Earth to run. It doesn't need to be exciting, but I don't want a rattling diesel. I find the hybrid technology quite interesting, and the cars themselves quite interesting. My commute going from rural B roads to D/C and then into a town centre, and the only choke point I really experience in a car is working days when I'm leaving the town, as there is a lot of trundling at 20/30mph then. Sounds like a hybrid would be ideal. I'll be looking mainly at the Prius, mkII Insight and the Civic Hybrid.
It's not that I've given up on performance cars, but I have a Daytona T595 to ride which is outrageously good fun - I'd have to spend a lot of money to find anything nearly as good on four wheels!
An EV is what you want! Why bother with carting around an ICE engine if you don't need too? If you do less than about 70miles a day, and even better if you have a house where you can do local generation (solar/wind etc) it's even better. It's not that I've given up on performance cars, but I have a Daytona T595 to ride which is outrageously good fun - I'd have to spend a lot of money to find anything nearly as good on four wheels!
kambites said:
fatboy b said:
If you add together the total production / usage / end of life costs, both in terms of ££ and greeness, they are no better than a conventional car.
Citation needed.And not one funded by the oil industry.
The articles base the figures on manufactures performance figures. If you confine a hybrid to town driving, they achieve better emissions (still not manufacturers stated emissions), but on a motorway or A road, they get woeful compared to conventional, and the gap between actual & manufacturers is wider than conventional.
fatboy b said:
Difficult to find one document. The ones I've read all agree hybrids cost more to make & dispose off in terms of CO2 (Toyota agree too), but the cost to run them cancels this out.
I suspect that says more about your choice of reading material than the actual matter at hand. If you read around enough you come to the conclusion that all of the published studies have huge political bias and that no-one actually knows the answer. It's near enough impossible to work out the full life-cycle CO2 emissions of even a single vehicle let alone answer more generic questions. As for actual tailpipe emissions, that's obviously easier to do but still not particularly useful as the vehicles in question tend to require very different driving styles and are optimally used for different types of driving.
Itsallicanafford said:
pop into Lexus my friend, the IS300H is aimed squarely at the 320D
Is the IS300h really a competitor with the 320d? Yes, it's the same size but it always looks far more expensive and far more premium. Comparing a few used models, yes it seems that way. You'd have to be nuts to buy a 320d then!fatboy b said:
but on a motorway or A road, they get woeful compared to conventional, and the gap between actual & manufacturers is wider than conventional.
So you are saying that the Pruis gets WORSE economy that a comparable class 1.8l gasoline only vehicle?Do you actually think at all before typing?
BTW the "gap" between the legally mandated test result used to determine fuel economy and real world economy ALWAYS gets bigger the more economic the vehicle is! It has too, Maths sees to that......
fatboy b said:
Difficult to find one document. The ones I've read all agree hybrids cost more to make & dispose off in terms of CO2 (Toyota agree too), but the cost to run them cancels this out.
The articles base the figures on manufactures performance figures. If you confine a hybrid to town driving, they achieve better emissions (still not manufacturers stated emissions), but on a motorway or A road, they get woeful compared to conventional, and the gap between actual & manufacturers is wider than conventional.
Woeful ? How many 1.8 litre petrol engines can average 60+ mpg on an a road of motorway ? Many diesels struggle with that, we drive our Prius as fast as anything else on the motorway and still get 55+ and if they aren't burning the fuel i really cant see how they are making the emissions The articles base the figures on manufactures performance figures. If you confine a hybrid to town driving, they achieve better emissions (still not manufacturers stated emissions), but on a motorway or A road, they get woeful compared to conventional, and the gap between actual & manufacturers is wider than conventional.
kambites said:
Max_Torque said:
BTW the "gap" between the legally mandated test result used to determine fuel economy and real world economy ALWAYS gets bigger the more economic the vehicle is! It has too, Maths sees to that......
Plug-in hybrids do particularly abuse the system, though. But, what should be compared is two identical cars, not one car and some totally arbitrary & "mythical" one.
IE, compare a Prius (1.8L hybrid) to a similar car (same size, performance etc)
Baryonyx said:
Itsallicanafford said:
pop into Lexus my friend, the IS300H is aimed squarely at the 320D
Is the IS300h really a competitor with the 320d? Yes, it's the same size but it always looks far more expensive and far more premium. Comparing a few used models, yes it seems that way. You'd have to be nuts to buy a 320d then!I'll be choosing between the IS300h and ActiveHybrid 3 Series next as they suit my usage pattern pretty well - Mostly town driving with the odd weekend away where I want some performance. If I was regularly up and down Motorways though I'd be choosing a 330d.
I run both a 2nd gen Prius and a supercharged S1 Lotus Elise. I do track days, too.
I love driving both of them. The Prius itself is not slow nor drives or handles badly. It is relaxing to drive, but you can also press on, as much as you can with 100HP. Difference is that you have those 100HP avaliable almost instantly. It just seems many folks never use them. Prime objective for the development were low emissions. The MPGs are more of a side effect.
There are pretty much no petrol cars on the road that beat a Prius in real world MPG except hybrid super mini tiny cars. The Diesel ones are about the same. If you check spritmonitor.de, folks register their fuel use there, you'll find that the only Diesel cars that beat a Prius are tiny cars such as a Micra or a Citroen C1 diesel. Try seating 4 + luggage in one of them. A Prius is also fairly roomy.
It is also one of the most reliable cars on the streets today. Pads and disks that lasts 60000+ miles in conjunction with a automatic transmission anyone? Supersmooth drive train. Lot's of space front and rear. Quiet. 500 miles of city traffic on 40 liters of petrol! Electric AC system works independently of engine. In a traffic jam, the engine just start every few minutes for a minute or two to recharge the battery.
There is a reson taxi companies around the world use them more and more. Prius operating costs are very low compared to virtually any other car. OK, Tesla Model S is the new kid on the block if the budget is high enough.
If you need a commuter car and you are on a budget, I'd look no further than a used 2nd Generation Prius.
It is ugly, agreed, but it does its job brilliantly.
I love driving both of them. The Prius itself is not slow nor drives or handles badly. It is relaxing to drive, but you can also press on, as much as you can with 100HP. Difference is that you have those 100HP avaliable almost instantly. It just seems many folks never use them. Prime objective for the development were low emissions. The MPGs are more of a side effect.
There are pretty much no petrol cars on the road that beat a Prius in real world MPG except hybrid super mini tiny cars. The Diesel ones are about the same. If you check spritmonitor.de, folks register their fuel use there, you'll find that the only Diesel cars that beat a Prius are tiny cars such as a Micra or a Citroen C1 diesel. Try seating 4 + luggage in one of them. A Prius is also fairly roomy.
It is also one of the most reliable cars on the streets today. Pads and disks that lasts 60000+ miles in conjunction with a automatic transmission anyone? Supersmooth drive train. Lot's of space front and rear. Quiet. 500 miles of city traffic on 40 liters of petrol! Electric AC system works independently of engine. In a traffic jam, the engine just start every few minutes for a minute or two to recharge the battery.
There is a reson taxi companies around the world use them more and more. Prius operating costs are very low compared to virtually any other car. OK, Tesla Model S is the new kid on the block if the budget is high enough.
If you need a commuter car and you are on a budget, I'd look no further than a used 2nd Generation Prius.
It is ugly, agreed, but it does its job brilliantly.
Max_Torque said:
fatboy b said:
but on a motorway or A road, they get woeful compared to conventional, and the gap between actual & manufacturers is wider than conventional.
So you are saying that the Pruis gets WORSE economy that a comparable class 1.8l gasoline only vehicle?Do you actually think at all before typing?
BTW the "gap" between the legally mandated test result used to determine fuel economy and real world economy ALWAYS gets bigger the more economic the vehicle is! It has too, Maths sees to that......
I had a Yaris Hybrid as it seemed a sensible choice living in London plus I was offered a good deal when chopping in an older Toyota. I moved shortly after getting it so my commute to suburban London changed to 20 miles or so split between A1 and London traffic. I genuinely tried hard to like it, I am a fan of efficiency and while a die hard car lover, do wonder what the future will hold when current fuel sources start running out. Hence it seemed to make sense.
Driving carefully on this route (rarely exceeding 60 on duel carriageway as that's where the fuel really takes a hit) I would get 60mpg on average, during winter more like 55mpg. Bearing in mind I'm a competent economical driver and I adjusted my behaviour for a hybrid (braking lightly and early to charge the battery, coasting as best possible etc) I don't think that is that amazing.
I'm sure the car would have caused me no trouble, I've barely lifted the bonnet on a Toyota during several years, two cars and many miles. I've also never had to tinker with my fridge or TV though and there's the rub, they're just so dull to live with.
I've changed to a current SEAT Leon with a 2L diesel engine. On the same commute I've had comparable mpg when driving in a similar fashion, it was more expensive to buy but a lot nicer place to sit and is much less susceptible to crosswinds (a Yaris trait) and other inconveniences.
Driving carefully on this route (rarely exceeding 60 on duel carriageway as that's where the fuel really takes a hit) I would get 60mpg on average, during winter more like 55mpg. Bearing in mind I'm a competent economical driver and I adjusted my behaviour for a hybrid (braking lightly and early to charge the battery, coasting as best possible etc) I don't think that is that amazing.
I'm sure the car would have caused me no trouble, I've barely lifted the bonnet on a Toyota during several years, two cars and many miles. I've also never had to tinker with my fridge or TV though and there's the rub, they're just so dull to live with.
I've changed to a current SEAT Leon with a 2L diesel engine. On the same commute I've had comparable mpg when driving in a similar fashion, it was more expensive to buy but a lot nicer place to sit and is much less susceptible to crosswinds (a Yaris trait) and other inconveniences.
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