RE: Toyota sells eight million hybrids
Discussion
I take great pleasure in blatting past the Nissan Leaf every time I see one. My car? A Nissan 350Z. Cars very much at the opposite ends of the spectrum.
£505 worth of CO2 induced VDE to rub in the face of the do-gooder wafting along in silence.
Not that I'm against hybrid powertrains; the technology is fascinating and really the only way we're going to wean ourselves off of fossil fuels. I do feel like I'm undoing all the good work done by the Leaf as I drop a cog and drop another block of carbon out the back of my car, however
N.b. I fully realise they should be rubbing the extra £505 burning a hole in their pockets in my face, but to me it's worth every penny!
£505 worth of CO2 induced VDE to rub in the face of the do-gooder wafting along in silence.
Not that I'm against hybrid powertrains; the technology is fascinating and really the only way we're going to wean ourselves off of fossil fuels. I do feel like I'm undoing all the good work done by the Leaf as I drop a cog and drop another block of carbon out the back of my car, however
N.b. I fully realise they should be rubbing the extra £505 burning a hole in their pockets in my face, but to me it's worth every penny!
Edited by Alias218 on Friday 21st August 17:06
Max_Torque said:
fatboy b said:
If you add together the total production / usage / end of life costs, both in terms of ££ and greeness, they are no better than a conventional car. The only use they can have is to reduce exhaust pipe emissions (temporarily) in big cities. Once they are on the open road, they are pointless, and often use more fuel than a conventional non-hybrid car. They are heavier than a non-hybrid version, as you have cart around 2 engines and 2 power sources. They are also more than a tad dangerous is a collision if you unfortunately have to be cut out of the wreckage. Jump-starting one isn't without its hazards.
^^^^ B*LL*CKS of the highest "google-based-not-actually-facts" nature.For instance, EVs that use an IC powertrain to charge the batteries (as opposed to driving the wheels) are extremely efficient owing to the IC engine being optimised to run in a given band. The equivalent economies in these vehicles is phenomenal. Tailpipe emissions are reduced, plus fewer batteries are required due to them being on a constant trickle charge. When they are charged, the IC engine can go into standby.
PHEV powertrains are taking advantage of KERS style technologies where their electric motors 'switch' and become giant dynamos. A generator and an electric motor are essentially opposites of one another, and using this allows for 'engine' (generator) braking to be used instead of friction brakes. Not only does this recharge the batteries every time you slow down, it's also significantly reduces wear of brake assemblies, increasing their life and removing emissions elsewhere in the supply chain. These powertrains are also very good at filling in gaps in an IC engine's power/torque curves increasing efficiency there, plus they can add extra acceleration when it's needed, allowing for a far smaller IC engine to be used in place of a large one for a similar application.
Not to mention that 'batteries at the end of their life are harmful' isn't structly true either. Companies like Renault, Toyota and Nissan are doing battery lease programs by which they take end of life batteries, refurbish them and press them back into service. This not only removes the fallacy of a complete and expensive battery replacement every 5-10 years, but also goes to show that mountains of disused batteries aren't piling up in landfill.
HEVs are a lot more than just marketing ploys. Granted a lot of these cars aren't inspiring, but the sports car manufacturers are putting this to bed. And we all know that eventually these technologies trickle down into mainstream products. There are some very exciting cars coming, and they will be a lot more environmentally friendly to boot.
Edited by Alias218 on Friday 21st August 17:50
I understand that petrolheads want to hold the 1st generation Prius as an example of all that's wrong with the world, and it is utterly boring. However in '97 Toyota were still making the Mr2 and Supra, in '99 they introduced the Celica, in '00 the Mr2 Roadster. The Prius was not the beginning of the end, the 'end' of exciting cars will come with self driving cars.
Also the Prius isn't aimed at people who enjoy driving, it's for people who want to go from A to B quietly and cheaply. Why give a s**t if you're never going to buy one? If you're a petrolhead and want a Toyota, you can still buy a GT86.
Also the Prius isn't aimed at people who enjoy driving, it's for people who want to go from A to B quietly and cheaply. Why give a s**t if you're never going to buy one? If you're a petrolhead and want a Toyota, you can still buy a GT86.
Alias218 said:
For instance, EVs that use an IC powertrain to charge the batteries (as opposed to driving the wheels) are extremely efficient owing to the IC engine being optimised to run in a given band. The equivalent economies in these vehicles is phenomenal.
I wasnt aware that there were EV's that used the ICE to charge the batteries rather than drive the wheels that's an interesting development. Edited by Alias218 on Friday 21st August 17:50
The Prius engine uses the Atkinson cycle rather than the usual Otto cycle. Efficiency is improved at the expense of power, also these engines are only efficient over a very narrow power band making the CVT an obvious choice and being able to use the electric motor to fill in and supplement the ICE power makes for the seamless delivery , the Prius is rather well thought out and clearly an entire product rather then merely dipping a toe in the technology , you can see why Toyota have done so well with it
Itsallicanafford said:
'Auris Hybrid do much for you? Lexus IS300h? Exactly.'
i own both of these cars, they are brilliant!
I put nearly 2,000km on a brand spankin' rental Auris Hybrid in Sweden last month.i own both of these cars, they are brilliant!
All I will say is that if you think that is a "brilliant" car, your standards are deeply suspect. If I tried to explain all the many ways in which it was thoroughly underwhelming, I'd fall asleep before even getting half-way through.
Itsallicanafford said:
TNH said:
I wouldn't mind driving a hybrid, its the fact that they all look bloody stupid in comparison to "normal" cars. If BMW (or anyone else) did an affordable hybrid 3er (ie comparable to a 320d) then I would rather drive the hybrid.
pop into Lexus my friend, the IS300H is aimed squarely at the 320Dtomic said:
I live in London so I do a lot of short journeys which means the fuel consumption in my 330i is pretty poor. I had Direct Injection Diesels previously which suffered with fuel system issues because they weren't being run at Motorway Speed regularly enough and got gummed up.
I'll be choosing between the IS300h and ActiveHybrid 3 Series next as they suit my usage pattern pretty well - Mostly town driving with the odd weekend away where I want some performance. If I was regularly up and down Motorways though I'd be choosing a 330d.
As long as the one you choose is the BMW, you'll be fine.I'll be choosing between the IS300h and ActiveHybrid 3 Series next as they suit my usage pattern pretty well - Mostly town driving with the odd weekend away where I want some performance. If I was regularly up and down Motorways though I'd be choosing a 330d.
TooMany2cvs said:
Itsallicanafford said:
'Auris Hybrid do much for you? Lexus IS300h? Exactly.'
i own both of these cars, they are brilliant!
I put nearly 2,000km on a brand spankin' rental Auris Hybrid in Sweden last month.i own both of these cars, they are brilliant!
All I will say is that if you think that is a "brilliant" car, your standards are deeply suspect. If I tried to explain all the many ways in which it was thoroughly underwhelming, I'd fall asleep before even getting half-way through.
I've put nearly 19,000 miles on mine since October and think it's great for what I need.
It's quiet, refined, reasonably comfortable and very relaxing to drive. It's also brisk enough to never have a problem keeping up with normal traffic (3.0 A8 Tdi this morning excepted!). Handling is really competent, it's nicely balanced and progressive right up to the limit although the steering is devoid of feel but you get used to that.
Twisty A and B roads aren't really it's forte but it does ok. Most of my mileage is carried out in the motorway or around town, where it's away from the lights or off a roundabout before all the dull diesels have managed to get the turbos spinning.
As said, it's not everyone's cup of tea, I came to this car from a Superb 170tdi, and am happy with it.
It's not an inspiring car, of course it isn't, but as a work tool it's great. More reliable and better built that most of the generic VAG stuff too in my experience.
If you want a s
t car, go and try an Insignia for an example of how bad a modern car can be. Super Slo Mo said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Itsallicanafford said:
'Auris Hybrid do much for you? Lexus IS300h? Exactly.'
i own both of these cars, they are brilliant!
I put nearly 2,000km on a brand spankin' rental Auris Hybrid in Sweden last month.i own both of these cars, they are brilliant!
All I will say is that if you think that is a "brilliant" car, your standards are deeply suspect. If I tried to explain all the many ways in which it was thoroughly underwhelming, I'd fall asleep before even getting half-way through.
I've put nearly 19,000 miles on mine since October and think it's great for what I need.
It's quiet, refined, reasonably comfortable and very relaxing to drive. It's also brisk enough to never have a problem keeping up with normal traffic (3.0 A8 Tdi this morning excepted!). Handling is really competent, it's nicely balanced and progressive right up to the limit although the steering is devoid of feel but you get used to that.
Twisty A and B roads aren't really it's forte but it does ok. Most of my mileage is carried out in the motorway or around town, where it's away from the lights or off a roundabout before all the dull diesels have managed to get the turbos spinning.
As said, it's not everyone's cup of tea, I came to this car from a Superb 170tdi, and am happy with it.
It's not an inspiring car, of course it isn't, but as a work tool it's great. More reliable and better built that most of the generic VAG stuff too in my experience.
If you want a s
t car, go and try an Insignia for an example of how bad a modern car can be. I just don't think that's enough to warrant labelling it "brilliant".
TooMany2cvs said:
Super Slo Mo said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Itsallicanafford said:
'Auris Hybrid do much for you? Lexus IS300h? Exactly.'
i own both of these cars, they are brilliant!
I put nearly 2,000km on a brand spankin' rental Auris Hybrid in Sweden last month.i own both of these cars, they are brilliant!
All I will say is that if you think that is a "brilliant" car, your standards are deeply suspect. If I tried to explain all the many ways in which it was thoroughly underwhelming, I'd fall asleep before even getting half-way through.
I've put nearly 19,000 miles on mine since October and think it's great for what I need.
It's quiet, refined, reasonably comfortable and very relaxing to drive. It's also brisk enough to never have a problem keeping up with normal traffic (3.0 A8 Tdi this morning excepted!). Handling is really competent, it's nicely balanced and progressive right up to the limit although the steering is devoid of feel but you get used to that.
Twisty A and B roads aren't really it's forte but it does ok. Most of my mileage is carried out in the motorway or around town, where it's away from the lights or off a roundabout before all the dull diesels have managed to get the turbos spinning.
As said, it's not everyone's cup of tea, I came to this car from a Superb 170tdi, and am happy with it.
It's not an inspiring car, of course it isn't, but as a work tool it's great. More reliable and better built that most of the generic VAG stuff too in my experience.
If you want a s
t car, go and try an Insignia for an example of how bad a modern car can be. I just don't think that's enough to warrant labelling it "brilliant".
The car is uninspiring, but thoroughly competent. You wouldn't buy it as a toy, but then neither would you buy a diesel Golf, Focus, A3 etc etc for that reason. In its favour are comfy seats, decent ride, big boot (mine is the estate), lots of standard kit, and a more refined drivetrain than anything bar a full EV.
Jonny_ said:
The Auris in itself isn't a "brilliant" car.
Great, we're in agreement there.Jonny_ said:
But the hybrid drivetrain most certainly is. Engineering, refinement, efficiency - definitely "brilliant". Performance is decent enough too, but the smooth power delivery is deceptive compared with the "surge, pause, surge" of modern turbo stuff.
Odd. I found it thoroughly gutless unless you really stomped it - at which point, it became intrusively loud and harsh. And still not exactly quick.TooMany2cvs said:
Odd. I found it thoroughly gutless unless you really stomped it - at which point, it became intrusively loud and harsh. And still not exactly quick.
I think it's the linear nature of the power delivery, there's no build up in power since you can get it all at any speed, which makes it feel flat. It isn't though, not if you look at the speedo, and what the car is doing in relation to other traffic. It's party piece is rapid getaways off the lights or roundabouts.
My view is that it's broadly equivalent in terms of performance to the 170 bhp VAG TDI unit I had before, up to around 80-90 mph which is enough for me anyway.
I came to the Toyota fully expecting to hate it, I was given one for a week by the local dealership, and after a day was converted. Going back to a conventional drivetrain now feels so old fashioned, it's weird how your perceptions change.
For what I need it's great. I have a bike for entertainment anyway.
But you could level the same criticism at any run of the mill sub-140bhp hatchback. None are really "quick", all make a racket at full power, and it's the nonlinear power delivery of the turbocharged engines that makes them feel faster than they really are.
Still, as with most cars, you either like it or you don't.
At least you dislike an unfashionable car; my antipathy toward the VW Golf, on the other hand, makes me something akin to the Antichrist...!
Still, as with most cars, you either like it or you don't.
At least you dislike an unfashionable car; my antipathy toward the VW Golf, on the other hand, makes me something akin to the Antichrist...!
Super Slo Mo said:
I think it's the linear nature of the power delivery, there's no build up in power since you can get it all at any speed, which makes it feel flat. It isn't though, not if you look at the speedo, and what the car is doing in relation to other traffic.
It's party piece is rapid getaways off the lights or roundabouts.
The one I had must've been seriously broken, then, since the throttle pedal didn't seem to do very much at all in the first half or more of the travel - to the point that driving it on the cruise control was far, far easier.It's party piece is rapid getaways off the lights or roundabouts.
It could have been in 'Eco' mode, or whatever it's called.
It de-sensitises the throttle for reasons of economy. I have mine set like that but am used to it. I'm a bit leaden footed at the best of times, so it works for me to have the throttle fairly insensitive at the top. It also means I'm more inclined to drive 'progressively' and steadily around town.
Selecting 'Normal', or 'Power', sharpens it up, at the expense of some fuel economy. Doesn't make it any faster mind you, not ultimately.
There's another reason I like this car, it encourages me to drive it more gently than I normally would, and as it's refined and relaxing, I don't get as annoyed with other traffic as I would otherwise.
It de-sensitises the throttle for reasons of economy. I have mine set like that but am used to it. I'm a bit leaden footed at the best of times, so it works for me to have the throttle fairly insensitive at the top. It also means I'm more inclined to drive 'progressively' and steadily around town.
Selecting 'Normal', or 'Power', sharpens it up, at the expense of some fuel economy. Doesn't make it any faster mind you, not ultimately.
There's another reason I like this car, it encourages me to drive it more gently than I normally would, and as it's refined and relaxing, I don't get as annoyed with other traffic as I would otherwise.
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